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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be happy it will soon be illegal to smack children?

402 replies

speakout · 19/10/2017 14:26

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41678797

Brilliant news.

OP posts:
MancLife · 19/10/2017 19:12

There is no defence of 'preventing harm' that's the issue. It would be assault. Which is my concern. Or how about forcing a child out of a shop who's throwing a tantrum (not hitting). It would be assault and yet no risk of harm.

The proposed change doesn't allow for this.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/10/2017 19:15

There is no defence of 'preventing harm' that's the issue

There is. Self-defence (including of another person)

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 19:21

Genuinely thought it was already illegal. I smacked my DD once and still feel guilty for it today. She had a bit of a thing for fire. When the central heating went off, we had to use the fire in the living room for a few days along with a standy heater thing. We had a fireguard. She went to put her hand out to it and I grabbed her, pulled her back and told her that it was dangerous. She laughed and very quickly stuck her fingers out as if to actually grab hold of the guard (which would definitely have hurt her) and I smacked her hand away. Dsis hit the roof as I was apparently abusive and should never ever smack a child under any circumstance. My mother went off it telling me I should have let DD burn herself and she 'would have learnt' that way.

She did not go to touch the fire again. And I prefer her having a bit of a smack on the hand than a burn and possibly a scar.

I would actually do it again despite the guilt, if I thought it was the only way I could make her realise what she was doing was unsafe or to shock her out of doing what she was doing. Even if it was illegal (which I already thought it was). Smacking as a go to form of discipline I do not agree with at all though.

speakout · 19/10/2017 19:26

Hornytortoise but why the need to hit?
If my OH was about to touch something just out the oven and he didn't know it would be hot I may say "No" or "Stop", or I may grab his hand.

I wouldn't dream of smacking him.

OP posts:
speakout · 19/10/2017 19:29

Teachers manage to keep whole a whole classroom full of kids disciplined and safe without the need to hit them.

OP posts:
CheshireChat · 19/10/2017 19:35

Not sure why people are saying you won't be allowed to grab your toddler if he tries to run into the road/ doesn't want to leave, why would that count as smacking?

Also I'm fairly sure it's ok to grab an adult if they're walking in front of a car or similar.

larrygrylls · 19/10/2017 19:36

Speakout,

Up to a point. They also only need to do it for a few hours a day and are backed up by a whole set of other people to help when it gets tough.

In many schools, anyway, the discipline is appalling and little learning gets done.

Queenofthedrivensnow · 19/10/2017 19:38

I'm delighted by this news. I really don't care about the nay Sayers. I don't want any child smacked or hurt.

Soci · 19/10/2017 19:39

speakout, I don't think your comparisons are very helpful.

MancLife · 19/10/2017 19:42

Let's be clear. THIS IS NOT A BAT ON SMACKING!! It is the removal of a defence in law to assault. So using the adult/child argument.

You're out with an adult friend when they refuse to leave a shop following an argument and want to walk off saying they're never coming back. You grab their arm and force them out of the shop and into the car.

I'm sure we would agree it's an assault. So do that after the law has changed to a 4 y/o and you could face prosecution.

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 19:44

Hornytortoise but why the need to hit?
If my OH was about to touch something just out the oven and he didn't know it would be hot I may say "No" or "Stop", or I may grab his hand.

I don't really know. I had already grabbed her, which she found funny. I had told her off sternly. Smacking her hand seemed a better option than allowing her to burn herself in a spur of the moment decision tbh. I guess she would have also learnt not to touch the fire by her touching the fire (which was my mothers point) but I still think smacking her hand away was the better option tbh. But that doesn't stop me feeling guilty, and I have never done it again since but I can;t say I never would if faced with a similar situation.

I was told off by a randomer on the street not that long ago for forcibly grabbing my son. The way I grabbed him will probably have hurt (had hold of his hand already but ended up nearly doing that thing police do when they arrest you with the angle I was at at the time), and he did cry but I think it was more out of shock than pain. But it was between that, and him walking infront of a bus.

Split second risk assessments in my head aren't always thought out properly tbh and I would never smack out of anger or simply for punishment. I don't think. But this thread has made me think a bit, specifically Rebels post. How would you be able to sort that? A child with their teeth sunk into your lip..noone else around to help and the child ignoring you? A choice between possibly losing your lip, or shocking the child out of it...Its not something I have given too much thought to actually before, except for feeling ridiculously guilty over the one time I ever did it.

I do think there is a world of difference between smacking and beating. Though yes, smacking is still hitting.

MancLife · 19/10/2017 19:45

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Self defence is just that. Defence of oneself not that if someone just making an unwise or dangerous decision. Unless they're adults who lack the mental capacity.

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 19:47

Teachers manage to keep whole a whole classroom full of kids disciplined and safe without the need to hit them.

Our chemistry teacher batted someone with a textbook for sticking their hand over an experiment. Don't remember what it was, whatever it was made a blue flame with a white middle. This was going back 15 years or so though I guess. I would rather a teacher smacked my kid than allowed them to seriously hurt themelves, thats for sure.

speakout · 19/10/2017 19:48

horny I had already grabbed her, which she found funny. I had told her off sternly.
So I imagine you were a little angry at being laughed at. So second time reacted by hitting her rather than another approach.

OP posts:
speakout · 19/10/2017 19:49

I don't want to sound judgemental, just trying to understand horny.

OP posts:
MancLife · 19/10/2017 19:49

*Ban not Bat

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 19:50

Let's be clear. THIS IS NOT A BAT ON SMACKING!! It is the removal of a defence in law to assault. So using the adult/child argument.

You're out with an adult friend when they refuse to leave a shop following an argument and want to walk off saying they're never coming back. You grab their arm and force them out of the shop and into the car.

I'm sure we would agree it's an assault. So do that after the law has changed to a 4 y/o and you could face prosecution.

So...if my daughter has a strop in tesco because I won't buy her a my little pony magazine, I could not pick her up and carry her to her grandads to calm down, I would have to stay in the shop until she chilled?! Thats how I am reading this anyway..

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 19:51

So I imagine you were a little angry at being laughed at. So second time reacted by hitting her rather than another approach.

Not really. She laughs at me fairly often, especially when I am trying to discipline her. I must have a amusing 'mum face/voice'

LaughingElliot · 19/10/2017 19:55

*I imagine this is true amongst parents who already parented their children pretty well and were (and still are) very unlikely to attract the attention of the police or social services.

But if you think it's true for other parents, I suggest you take a trip down to your local district court, or read the law reports or the newspapers. The depressing reality is that children regularly have seven bell bashed out of them by their parents, caregivers or step-parents and often the first that social services hear of it is when the coroner's court is convened. Beating up children was never legal under the law in NZ (and won't be under the existing laws in England and Scotland) as it wasn't justifiable, or reasonable, and wasn't a genuine exercise of discipline rather than rage. I think UK Mumsnetters would be absolutely appalled at the frequency of severe violence against children here, and the number of deaths of children at the hands of adults. There are some reports I can hardly bear to read.*

Well, yes and no. There certainly have been cases of “middle class” (though we are a classless society) parents being arrested for hitting their children including an MP. And the law gives police power to act which is why we are seeing more cases before the courts.

However NZ still has an appalling record for child abuse. if you break down the figures, you’ll see there is an ethnic component to the trend and a lot of work still needs to be done.

However I agree with the poster who said that there has been a shift in awareness that violence against children (or anyone) is unacceptable.

Calling violence “discipline” is so absurd, do people really still think it’s helpful to hit children?

As for the crossing road/touching oven thing, that is such a crock. Preschool teachers manage to take armies of small children out into the community and into kitchens to bake without having to hit anyone.

LaughingElliot · 19/10/2017 19:57

Horny you are being ridiculous. No one cares if your child has a strop in Travis. This isn’t all about you.

BuzzKillington · 19/10/2017 20:00

Great news. Told the 15 year old. He assumed it was already illegal everywhere.

Anyone that thinks hitting a child under the guise of discipline should be ashamed - and prosecuted.

HornyTortoise · 19/10/2017 20:01

Horny you are being ridiculous. No one cares if your child has a strop in Travis. This isn’t all about you.

What an odd response. I was asking if I had understood the post right.

MancLife · 19/10/2017 20:05

@HornyTortoise

Pretty much. Unless there's something added in the changes to account for that.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/10/2017 20:05

Self defence is just that. Defence of oneself not that if someone just making an unwise or dangerous decision.

Nope. In Scots common law you can use reasonable force to save life or property (your own or someone else's). See people using restraints / physical interventions perfectly legally in all sorts of situations.

Toadinthehole · 19/10/2017 20:09

NZ is most certainly not a classless society. It's one of the more inegalitarian societies in the OECD. The reality is that a lot of Maori are dirt poor, under pressure, and that reflects itself in the crime stats in just the same way as if they were a class. Frankly, it's a fucking disgrace, a stain on the country's conscience, and virtue-signalling legislation like banning smacking names no difference.

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