Aibu to think that no gender is perfect

[Yourownworstenemy]

I genuinely don't know if I am being unreasonable here.

I feel like there is so much stuff around at the minute hating on men (even before the weinstien thing) I feel like it's almost becoming ALL women against ALL men.

Do not get me wrong I fully agree we should all (men and women) stand with victims and fight for justice and punishment for the perpetrators.

But I just feel a bit like certain groups are using recent events to 'prove' all men are abusers, it's almost become all women are victims and all men are abusers, i agree the men (and women) who have committed crimes should be punished but there are many men in the world that aren't abusers, and there are many women in the world that are, and I feel like we are becoming a bit blind to that in recent years.

In real life I daren't voice this though because I'm not always the most articulate person and I feel It might seem like I am defending people like Weinstein which obviously I am definitely not doing!

[MrsTerryPratchett]

You know what's REALLY interesting? We argue about this stuff and say NAMALT and AllWomen and #MeToo but we don't know what we are talking about.

We know pretty well how many women are beaten, raped, killed, abused. But it's really difficult to find statistics on how many men are doing it. Very very vaguely, extrapolating from terrible data...

About 1-2% of men are child abusers.
About 10-20% of men are rapists or would-be rapists (US).
About 10-50% of men hit intimate partners (varies by country).
And a shit-tonne touch women, harass women, grope women and assault women (including at least one, probably more, Presidents of the United States).

When we say NAMALT, we should actually say QALOMALT quite a lot of men are like that. A really scary number. They kill women every day. The good ones need to stop saying, "NAMALT" and start saying, "what the fuck can we do to stop this, it's giving us a bad name?".

[Yourownworstenemy]

@cherrychasing if something isn't equal, is the best way to make it equal by perpetuating the unequalness?

As a woman turning around and saying 'this is for you guys to sort out, simply because you are all men and its some men that have done this' instead of all joining together against it really the best way to achieve equalness? Doesn't seem it to me

And also, while I fully agree on the facts that most sexual crimes are committed by men, it's really convenient to just gloss over the fact that some women commit these crimes, I understand it's more men than women but isn't it a little bit unfair of us to totally white wash it as a 'male against female crime' I would wager for the many men that have suffered these sorts of crimes that makes reporting it even more difficult than it already is

[CherryChasingDotMuncher]

As a woman turning around and saying 'this is for you guys to sort out, simply because you are all men and its some men that have done this' instead of all joining together against it really the best way to achieve equalness? Doesn't seem it to me

Women have been asking men for centuries to treat them better and stop hurting them. It ain’t working. Too right men should play their part, even the nice ones. Women aren’t sitting back doing nothing, they’re fighting hard against it.

And also, while I fully agree on the facts that most sexual crimes are committed by men, it's really convenient to just gloss over the fact that some women commit these crimes, I understand it's more men than women but isn't it a little bit unfair of us to totally white wash it as a 'male against female crime' I would wager for the many men that have suffered these sorts of crimes that makes reporting it even more difficult than it already is

Someone a few weeks ago on MN had a really good analogy for the fact that men commit 96% of violent crime. It’s like a big building is burning, and so is a flower bed outside the building. Firemen come and ignore the building and put out he flower bed fire instead whole moaning “see, flowers are bastards too”. Yes it happens to men too. But, as a class, men oppress women, and that’s the point where we have to start at.

If all women stop committing violence tomorrow, not much would change. If all men did, imagine what a Change that would be

[MrsTerryPratchett]

'this is for you guys to sort out, simply because you are all men and its some men that have done this'

Nope. It's 'this is for you guys to sort out, because you are men and its some men that have done this and you basically run the courts, the press, the police, the government, business, Hollywood, the media, public space in general and all religion'.

[Yourownworstenemy]

@Cherrychase I don't agree that we should ignore the few and focus on the many, I think we should tackle it all as a whole, we've spent so long fight to be treated as people and not as a sex as you say so why are we doing it now it suits us? The fact is most men commit these crimes but some women do, so instead of saying men should sort it out because more of them do it, why aren't we saying all people who don't agree with sexual assault should condemn and punish and educate all people who commit sexual assault. Isn't that a fairer war?!

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Women have been asking for an age for men to join us and sort out these problems. And yet the majority don't. It isn't good enough for individual men not to be the perpetrators themselves. They need to step up and actively address the issues, using their privilege to do so, and by asking women what they need to do, and then listening to the answers.

Your second paragraph I find surprising. In the light of the recent revelations about Weinstein and his ilk, with all the women coming out to speak about their own assaults and harassment... and you think we should focus on the fact that it might make it harder for men to speak about assault/harassment? That's what you think the priority should be? Or at least we should spend an equal amount of time discussing it?

[Yourownworstenemy]

@assasinated didn't say that at all. Of course the major issue here is the crimes against all those women, but that doesn't mean that all other crimes and issues stop because we have this one big issue to sort out. I'm simply offering an additional thing to consider for other victims, who are victims just the same as all the women in the world, just happen to be in a minority

[MrsTerryPratchett]

If you were a doctor and 20% of men carried a disease that infected 90% of women. And those women had anything from some pain and discomfort to a lot of deaths, I mean every day...many deaths. Would you try to cure that disease?

Or, would you spend fucking hours trying to convince everyone to cure a disease that 2% of women carried that infected maybe 5% of men and was extremely rarely fatal?

And if women marched and protested saying that men needed as a group to have basic infection controls and universal precautions to stop the first disease infecting most women and killing so many of them, would you say, "NO NO NO the second disease, it exists, cure that!"?

[Yourownworstenemy]

@missterry that analogy doesn't work, the analogy that does work is this

If there was a disease that infected 90% of women and 10% of men, would I ignore the men and only treat the women?

No I'd treat them all as a whole because it's the same fucking disease! And would I tell men there disease didn't matter because more women had it than them? No, because that would be unfair.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

May I suggest that now is not the time to try and shoehorn your very minor campaign into a very large problem. No one is suggesting forgetting about male victims of sexual assault and harassment, or not addressing their issues. There needs to be a proportionate response, which is not to keep shouting about other issues in the face of this one.

[Yourownworstenemy]

@assassinated by all means, you may suggest whatever you like

[OkPedro]

You are part of the problem yourownworstenemy

You say we should all stand together against sexual violence but your op was about innocent men being blamed for a guilty mans crime.
I'm a feminist which means equal rights for both sexes (yes sexes not gender!) I certainly don't hate men, men play a huge part in my life. I just wish the decent men would stand up and support women.

If sexual violence was 50/50 you would have a point

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Good job no one is suggesting ignoring men or telling them it doesn't matter...

Do you think that women/feminists are causing issues by refusing to acknowledge that women are violent too, and that many men are their victims? Would you like to see a social media campaign that focusses on why women are violent to men, and how women abusing men can affect their life, careers etc? Do you think that sexual assault and harassment perpetrated by women is caused by different reasons to that perpetrated by men, or the same?

[trainedopossum]

OP with respect this is feminism 101.

'Glossing over' the fact that there are female abusers? Do you think more resources should be put into finding the tiny percentage of female abusers so we can use them as examples of how some woman are bad even though the vast majority of sexual and violent abuse is comitted by men?

'Of course the major issue here is the crimes against all those women' but what you seem to be saying here is that the important thing is to know that not all abusers are men - ?

I still don't understand what you have against asking men to join and support women in trying to take action against misogyny. How is that oppressive to men exactly?

Have you read this thread? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3063030-How-to-respond-to-a-what-about-teh-menz It might answer a lot of your questions.

[trainedopossum]

'@Assasinatedbeauty yes this is my point, it should be all people against all perpetrators, not all people against men, which in some cases I have seen it, nd people have even said on this thread, I'm sorry if it offends people but I absolutely do not subscribe to the concept that it's just collateral damage if all men are blamed for something some men have done and they should all just suck it up!

Do you not see the irony there?'

That's great, when all sexual assault is prosecuted and perpetrators are convicted we'll have something to talk about. In the meantime I don't see a lot of errant 'blaming'. Unless you mean that on a forum like this some people are talking about horrific sexual violence that is almost exclusively committed by men?

[Yourownworstenemy]

My point is this, and I'll try and make it simple

It shouldn't matter what % of victims of a crime are what gender, it shouldn't be 1 gender standing against another, it should be all humans standing with all victims, why is that such a horrendous view to have?

We should stand together as a society and put an end to it and stop blaming all men for something some men do

[Yourownworstenemy]

@trained I have no problem asking anyone to stand with victims and against abusers

There us a big difference between 'let's all stand together against this injustice' and 'why aren't you innocent men stopping these guilty men, you're all as bad as each other'

[AssassinatedBeauty]

It's not a horrendous view to have at all. The point you're missing is that, generally, men are not doing this. Women have been asking, pleading, demanding for an age for men to step and do as you suggest. Yet the vast majority do nothing, apart from not actively sexually assault or harass women themselves. But that isn't good enough. They also need to actively challenge other men and take action to change attitudes, expectations, the law etc etc. I am not blaming all men for some of them being violent and abusive. I am blaming the vast majority of them for standing by and doing very very little to address it.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Go and hold hands and sing kumbaya. See how far asking nicely gets you. Because you are under the impression that people haven't been asking nicely for decades. Women have asked. And women are still dying as a result of male violence. So are men BTW.

An end to male violence would save a lot of men's lives too. Ending female violence would do pretty much nothing.

And again, seeing as how men control the courts, the press, the police, the government, business, Hollywood, the media, public space in general and all religion wouldn't it be more time efficient for them to do something?

[OkPedro]

Ah you're just a goady fucker op Seeya

[Yourownworstenemy]

Ok well first of all 'ending women violence would do next to nothing' is probably pretty offensive to all the many people out there who have suffered, die etc at a females hand

But in regards the males not standing up with women then yes I agree this is not good enough, it's not good enough for anyone to stand by and do nothing in these situations, I just find it hard to swallow when one sex is singled out over another, and although I accept what you're saying I still think we need to be calling out everyone to stand against it not just men.

There will be many many people male and female who will hear about this most recent scandal and they may feel bad for all the victims, nd they may condemn the criminal, and they might even talk to people about how terrible it is, but ultimately they are far enough removed from it that they won't take any action. These are the people who need to stand up and fight and I don't believe what sex they are comes into it

[Yourownworstenemy]

👋 buy pedro

[AssassinatedBeauty]

"I just find it hard to swallow when one sex is singled out over another, and although I accept what you're saying I still think we need to be calling out everyone to stand against it not just men."

Can you explain why it upsets you to specifically call on men to address this? As a group, generally speaking, they have done nowhere near enough to address male violence. It took until 1991 for marital rape to be made illegal for example, and only after decades of campaigning by feminists and their supporters.

Do you agree that men are still overrepresented in positions of power/authority/wealth/influence etc? Those are the men that need to step up and take action.

[Yourownworstenemy]

What actually upsets me was men being blamed for it, I don't believe anyone should have to share a burden of guilt simply because of what sex they were born, but since we've clarified that Isn't what you are specifically saying then it's not so much that it upsets me to call on them to stand up against it, I just don't really understand why the average joe blog's off the street should be shouted at any louder than the average Tina blog's on the street, they're both equally as duty bound to stand up against it in my opinion

Now if were talking people in power, and the disproportionate amour of men in high powered jobs then I'll hold my hands up and say that's not something I've looked into thoroughly enough to have a valid option on, I'll take your word for it being the case and say in those cases then yes those men in those particular jobs should do whatever they can, but equally so should any women in those particular jobs

I suppose what it comes down to is I just don't see the need to specify men, if we assume these men are all guilt free of perpetrating these crimes and if we assume that some women are in equally influential jobs, then isn't it just easier to say 'all you people with influence who aren't doing anything should get off your arses'

[Slinkymalinky1]

Op I think I get what you’re trying to say. Flame me down here, I’ve clearly lived in a bubble of men that aren’t out to get women. So i struggle to get it. Obviously it goes on, but not in my experience, so it’s difficult to comprehend and I make no apologies for being lucky