Aibu to think that no gender is perfect

[Yourownworstenemy]

I genuinely don't know if I am being unreasonable here.

I feel like there is so much stuff around at the minute hating on men (even before the weinstien thing) I feel like it's almost becoming ALL women against ALL men.

Do not get me wrong I fully agree we should all (men and women) stand with victims and fight for justice and punishment for the perpetrators.

But I just feel a bit like certain groups are using recent events to 'prove' all men are abusers, it's almost become all women are victims and all men are abusers, i agree the men (and women) who have committed crimes should be punished but there are many men in the world that aren't abusers, and there are many women in the world that are, and I feel like we are becoming a bit blind to that in recent years.

In real life I daren't voice this though because I'm not always the most articulate person and I feel It might seem like I am defending people like Weinstein which obviously I am definitely not doing!

[trainedopossum]

'I suppose what it comes down to is I just don't see the need to specify men, if we assume these men are all guilt free of perpetrating these crimes and if we assume that some women are in equally influential jobs, then isn't it just easier to say 'all you people with influence who aren't doing anything should get off your arses''

Hmm, so your argument is based on a pyramid of assumptions then? Most of which seem to be a bit farfetched.

Given your lack of interest in feminism, you can't be expected to know the level of your ignorance, so let me tell you that people with a genuine interest in this subject are tired of explaining it to you and people like you. If you want to know more about why so many people feel this way - and you did ask if you were BU - read up. It isn't difficult to find a basic feminism reading list online. Then come back and see if you want to ask a different question.

When a child says 'but why?' over and over we accept that that is a way to learn. For a child. When an adult does something similar (except you aren't even really asking, just rehashing the same tired hand-wringing about innocent men over and over) it is tiresome and goady. You have some responsibility to understand the questions you are asking.

This is privilege pure and simple. You think you've earned the right to know so little about your own position in society? Sorry, you've just been lucky. Not all of us have been so lucky.

[CherryChasingDotMuncher]

They really aren't. They spend very little time ever thinking about it. Yes, they get upset when their girlfriend tells them about a past rape, and they might feel protective over women and girls they love, but I don't think they really get the enormity of the day to day harassment and belittlement that so many women and girls experience. (Especially girls under 19).
At the same time, men know full well what other men are like. They take comfort in thinking these other men are arseholes and they themselves are not, so that's ok then.
Its not enough

This with bells on

[Motherbear26]

Ifnot sadly you are probably right.

[OpalIridescence]

ifnot, yes, exactly! Ok ,men are at risk of violence, overwhelmingly from other men! If OP was serious here, she would acknowledge that even if the victim may be interchangeable the vast majority of perpetrators are not. That is what is being deliberately glossed over.

I also agree that men are not as appalled by this, I am married to a decent man, however this stuff is just not on his radar in reality. If he thinks about it in relation to me or his daughters, there is a predictable protective response but not the understanding of how it fits together with harmless jokes etc.

However, I feel we are wasting our time, I don't see any actual engaging or discussion going on at all. Lots of people have raised point after point. Op has simply repeated the response of 'no, no matter what you say, I will not agree all women should be against all men'! Which no one had actually said!

[IfNot]

Most men are as appalled by all this as we are
They really aren't. They spend very little time ever thinking about it. Yes, they get upset when their girlfriend tells them about a past rape, and they might feel protective over women and girls they love, but I don't think they really get the enormity of the day to day harassment and belittlement that so many women and girls experience. (Especially girls under 19).
At the same time, men know full well what other men are like. They take comfort in thinking these other men are arseholes and they themselves are not, so that's ok then.
Its not enough.
I have a son and I care deeply about protecting him from violence, but honestly, it's violence or abuse from men that I worry about when it comes to him too.
I think the reason some women try and portray the small numbers of female on male violence as "part of the same problem" is because at heart they are worried that if they say " this is happening to the majority of women and men are doing it" then men won't like them anymore.
I haven't cared for years if men like me or not. It's extraordinarily liberating.

[OpalIridescence]

Ok OP I finally hear you. Should be all people against perpetrators.
Why don't we start with you?

Are you now going to go and spend as much time online defending the women who are speaking up as you have defending mens feelings?

[GruffaloPants]

I haven't seen anyone blaming all men. If you have, you need to confront your friends or get some new ones.

[treaclesoda]

I'm always slightly baffled by the statements about how men don't report crime against them because no one would believe it.

Isn't it ironic? Women live with this every day of their lives. From little girls who are bullied at school being told that they are overly sensitive, to teenage girls being told that teenage boys are just big balls of hormones and if they 'went too far' it was just a misunderstanding, to women in the workplace being told that when a man touches their breast or backside it must surely have been an accident, or that they have sour grapes because they wanted a promotion they didn't get.

This happens to women all the time. All the time. It's almost drummed into us that women are liars. But boo hoo for the men, because no one listens when a man speaks.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

mother

Excellent post

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

slinky

Why would anyone flame you

Yes youve ben lucky, thats fine

[Motherbear26]

Op, I do understand where you’re coming from, honestly. Most men are as appalled by all this as we are. But as pp’s have said, women have been fighting against this for decades alone. All I would ask is that those good men, which we have established are many, don’t focus on being tarred with the same brush. I would ask that they speak up when they hear ‘locker room talk’, that they step in when they see someone trying to take advantage of an intoxicated woman, that they stop minimising incidents as ‘banter’ when a woman is clearly unhappy and that when they are in positions of power, they step in when they see one of their peers behaving inappropriately, rather than just accepting it as ‘oh that’s just Harvey, they old dog’.

Years ago, my dh’s boss groped me. It was ‘minor’, and he was using my backside to ‘illustrate’ a point. My dh didn’t see and I felt unable to say anything at the time (We were quite young, now he would get an immediate slap) but I was appalled. I was upset and told my dh afterwards and of course he believed me, but he minimised the action saying, ‘oh he was just showing us what he meant’, ‘oh you know what he’s like’ etc etc. To make this clear, my dh was quite high up in the company and exceptionally good at his job. There was no chance he would be let go for any reason and even he acknowledged that. Afterwards ex-boss quite often tried to sit a bit too close to me, make me dance with him etc. All very minor things. He was like that with a lot of the women and we soon discovered he had been actively pursuing his poor pa for years. My dh did eventually notice the behaviour and left the company soon after to set up on his own but I never forgot that it took him witnessing the behaviour himself, and having it corroborated by said pa, to take action.

After the events of the past few days I brought it up and he did apologise but said that at the time he didn’t think it was worth saying anything. I asked him to just consider what he might have done if ex boss had done any of this to him. He finally, after all these years, understood why I had been so upset.

My dh is a feminist, respects women and would never commit some of the acts we’ve heard about recently. But he still didn’t think his wife being groped was a big enough issue to take action because his ex boss was, and I quote, ‘a good bloke’. My feelings weren’t enough to jeopardise ex-boss’s marriage because he’s just a bit touchy feely, he doesn’t mean anything. Dh finally understands that if he wouldn’t do it to one of the guys, it is a problem and he should say something. That is all I would ask from the other good guys. If that makes me a radical feminist so be it.

[peanut2017]

Op I think you need to do some research on issues affecting women on a daily basis and then come back to us.

I find it hard to believe that you can’t see that men hold the balance of power in the majority of structures - business (look at the number in of female ceo and board members), politics (look at the number of women in any government and that are female leaders). In Ireland where I live we have never had a female leader.

Look at religion - Catholic Church don’t let women become priests, they interfere in telling women how to look after their own bodies.

Rights to abortion - again in Ireland this is not legal and women every day have to travel to the UK. It has only just come out that a women died who was from Ireland and had to go to the uk to have a abortion. She died on the way home. Do you know what it feels like to have to go to another country to avail of this?

Media, music, Hollywood and on and on

For me personally what I find so hard to swallow with this argument of ‘not all men’ is women saying this who are not enraged, upset and commenting on this issue for women? Can you see how frustrating this is? Why not put more energy into researching these issues for other women rather than constantly trying to come back with these posts?

[peanut2017]

Minimum97 can you clarify what you think a radical feminist is please?

[AssassinatedBeauty]

"I just don't really understand why the average joe blog's off the street should be shouted at any louder than the average Tina blog's on the street, they're both equally as duty bound to stand up against it in my opinion"

Do you feel the same way about racism and homophobia? That black people are equally responsible for addressing racism, and LGB people for addressing homophobia? Even though they are not the people who perpetrate it and are less likely to be in positions of power/influence/wealth etc?

[Slinkymalinky1]

Op I think I get what you’re trying to say. Flame me down here, I’ve clearly lived in a bubble of men that aren’t out to get women. So i struggle to get it. Obviously it goes on, but not in my experience, so it’s difficult to comprehend and I make no apologies for being lucky

[Yourownworstenemy]

What actually upsets me was men being blamed for it, I don't believe anyone should have to share a burden of guilt simply because of what sex they were born, but since we've clarified that Isn't what you are specifically saying then it's not so much that it upsets me to call on them to stand up against it, I just don't really understand why the average joe blog's off the street should be shouted at any louder than the average Tina blog's on the street, they're both equally as duty bound to stand up against it in my opinion

Now if were talking people in power, and the disproportionate amour of men in high powered jobs then I'll hold my hands up and say that's not something I've looked into thoroughly enough to have a valid option on, I'll take your word for it being the case and say in those cases then yes those men in those particular jobs should do whatever they can, but equally so should any women in those particular jobs

I suppose what it comes down to is I just don't see the need to specify men, if we assume these men are all guilt free of perpetrating these crimes and if we assume that some women are in equally influential jobs, then isn't it just easier to say 'all you people with influence who aren't doing anything should get off your arses'

[AssassinatedBeauty]

"I just find it hard to swallow when one sex is singled out over another, and although I accept what you're saying I still think we need to be calling out everyone to stand against it not just men."

Can you explain why it upsets you to specifically call on men to address this? As a group, generally speaking, they have done nowhere near enough to address male violence. It took until 1991 for marital rape to be made illegal for example, and only after decades of campaigning by feminists and their supporters.

Do you agree that men are still overrepresented in positions of power/authority/wealth/influence etc? Those are the men that need to step up and take action.

[Yourownworstenemy]

👋 buy pedro

[Yourownworstenemy]

Ok well first of all 'ending women violence would do next to nothing' is probably pretty offensive to all the many people out there who have suffered, die etc at a females hand

But in regards the males not standing up with women then yes I agree this is not good enough, it's not good enough for anyone to stand by and do nothing in these situations, I just find it hard to swallow when one sex is singled out over another, and although I accept what you're saying I still think we need to be calling out everyone to stand against it not just men.

There will be many many people male and female who will hear about this most recent scandal and they may feel bad for all the victims, nd they may condemn the criminal, and they might even talk to people about how terrible it is, but ultimately they are far enough removed from it that they won't take any action. These are the people who need to stand up and fight and I don't believe what sex they are comes into it

[OkPedro]

Ah you're just a goady fucker op Seeya

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Go and hold hands and sing kumbaya. See how far asking nicely gets you. Because you are under the impression that people haven't been asking nicely for decades. Women have asked. And women are still dying as a result of male violence. So are men BTW.

An end to male violence would save a lot of men's lives too. Ending female violence would do pretty much nothing.

And again, seeing as how men control the courts, the press, the police, the government, business, Hollywood, the media, public space in general and all religion wouldn't it be more time efficient for them to do something?

[AssassinatedBeauty]

It's not a horrendous view to have at all. The point you're missing is that, generally, men are not doing this. Women have been asking, pleading, demanding for an age for men to step and do as you suggest. Yet the vast majority do nothing, apart from not actively sexually assault or harass women themselves. But that isn't good enough. They also need to actively challenge other men and take action to change attitudes, expectations, the law etc etc. I am not blaming all men for some of them being violent and abusive. I am blaming the vast majority of them for standing by and doing very very little to address it.

[Yourownworstenemy]

@trained I have no problem asking anyone to stand with victims and against abusers

There us a big difference between 'let's all stand together against this injustice' and 'why aren't you innocent men stopping these guilty men, you're all as bad as each other'

[Yourownworstenemy]

My point is this, and I'll try and make it simple

It shouldn't matter what % of victims of a crime are what gender, it shouldn't be 1 gender standing against another, it should be all humans standing with all victims, why is that such a horrendous view to have?

We should stand together as a society and put an end to it and stop blaming all men for something some men do

[trainedopossum]

'@Assasinatedbeauty yes this is my point, it should be all people against all perpetrators, not all people against men, which in some cases I have seen it, nd people have even said on this thread, I'm sorry if it offends people but I absolutely do not subscribe to the concept that it's just collateral damage if all men are blamed for something some men have done and they should all just suck it up!

Do you not see the irony there?'

That's great, when all sexual assault is prosecuted and perpetrators are convicted we'll have something to talk about. In the meantime I don't see a lot of errant 'blaming'. Unless you mean that on a forum like this some people are talking about horrific sexual violence that is almost exclusively committed by men?