AIBU or should the teachers be university qualified?

[Clandestino]

I just read the following article and I am horrified at the idea that the future generations will be taught by people going through a fast-track apprenticeship scheme. In my opinion, teachers should be highly qualified university graduates as they are supposed to be able to teach their subjects and also have the right pedagogical and psychological skills and knowledge. This is simply not right.

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/17/teacher-undergrad-school-vacancies-cheap

I'm a bit torn on this tbh. I'd be the first to agree that teachers need to know their subject really well and that managing a classroom full of kids with a variety of needs and issues is a very very hard job. And that teachers need and deserve respect, support and decent pay.

But... a) my PGCE course didn't teach me much b) some of the best teachers I've worked with have been the least well qualified academically c) the content of many degree courses (including mine) is utterly irrelevant to what you teach in school d) you can only really learn how to teach by actually teaching. Oh and e) many of the worst teachers I've ever worked with have been highly qualified and increfibly knowledgeable about their subject.

I don't really know what the answer is. But requiring teachers to have degrees and PGCEs doesn't seem to have resulted in respect and good conditions for teachers or in consistent and great teaching for children.

I expect lots of schools already have unqualified teachers. Academies don't have to employ graduates. They can take on anyone as a teacher. I think it's wrong but it saves them money, which is why they do it.

Teacher should be train to teach . A good teacher can teach anything .

I qualified as a teacher (primary/secondary) at a teacher training college in 1965. I went on to do a degree 10 years later as there was a salary bar if you didn't have a good (2:2 or better) honours degree.

It's not just about subject knowledge and teaching ability/pedagogical knowledge though,
graduates ought to have critical thinking skills, high level literacy, research skills and other soft skills with which to approach teaching in a professional way.
They also need to have a broad enough education (especially if primary teachers) so that they can support children's interests and curiosity when it strays beyond the material required by the curriculum.
I realis that this is only a dream...

You do realise that teachers in academies, free schools and private schools (in England) don't need to have any formal qualifications in order to be employed?

newtlover that post needs to be printed out as a leaflet, written in the sky by planes and subliminally beamed into the brains of politicians and think tanks who know damn well that their kids will never be taught by well meaning 18 year olds.

There have been courses for years for accessing teaching prior to having a degree qualification. And of course courses where there isn't a subject degree but a teaching qualification (BEd). This isn't new.
There are also plenty of people doing teaching who did a BSc or BA then a PGCE but absolutely no child psychology or child development. I always thought that would be fairly basic. Teaching qualifications are very much a signing off process.

there were times when almost anyone with a bit of education could become a teacher. I don't think we should strive to go back to the past, especially as the demands on both, teachers and pupils have risen so high.

Back in 'the past' there were essentially two professionals for intelligent, 'middle class' women; nursing and teaching. Since all those brilliant and driven women couldn't do anything else, the teaching and nursing professions had the cream of the crop.

Now teaching is seen and treated, and paid, as a shitty job. What on earth did we all expect? There are still dedicated and wonderful teachers but only because some people have a vocation.

For poster further up about nurses I disagree the worst thing they did for the NHS was making it a degree course I have met and seen some many nurses that on paper are great nurses but don’t have any compassion or any idea how to be a nurse

As a couple of people have already mentioned academies etc. don't need to employ qualified teachers hence half of all teaching posts being filled with unqualified teachers:

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/09/12/half-teaching-posts-filled-unqualified-teachers-national-audit/

It's already happening.

There are also plenty of people doing teaching who did a BSc or BA then a PGCE but absolutely no child psychology or child development.

My PGCE had plenty of child development content.

I did a PGCE straight after a degree in psychology, unfortunately the psychology content in the PGCE was outdated and required to be rote learnt, there were no marks given for critiquing Piaget.
It was a long time ago though.

I don't really know what the answer is. But requiring teachers to have degrees and PGCEs doesn't seem to have resulted in respect and good conditions for teachers or in consistent and great teaching for children.

But removing the need for teachers to have a degree whilst they train-which is ultimately what the government are driving at with this one-is hardly going to improve things.

Ok this is going to sound awful and I have worked with many fantastic TAs over the years and they work so hard and really care about the kids.

But

At my school at least, there does seem to be a huge gap in professionalism between the teachers and TAs. Just the way some of them are with the kids, the way they speak ('what was you doing'), their social media, things they discuss in the ckassroom. I can't put my finger on it but the teachers have a different level of professionalism. Whether that comes from a degree per se or what I don't know.

Sticking 18 year olds into a classroom is an absolute disaster.

The best teacher I had at secondary school (who was Departmental Head) did not have a degree.

What I’d like to see is the means for a non-graduate to enter teaching and then work towards full qualification and degree.

As it stands, the profession excludes anyone who can’t afford to go to university.

Teaching is the only profession which is spoken of in this way. I have never met a secondary teacher with no degree and to suggest subject knowledge is unimportant in teaching is outrageous. What do people think we do? Just read up a bit before a class? It takes years and academic qualifications to teach a subject effectively. I'm aghast at hearing about teachers, even in the past, with no qualifications. I find it extremely shocking.

The skills and qualities required to succeed in a university degree are not the same skills and qualities required to be an outstanding teacher.

It's that simple.

Teachers may start on low salaries but after a number of years it is ok. My partner gets £39000 a year with no management responsibilities and will get an index linked pension of in the region of £18000 a year at retirement. It's not that shabby

Not this again. Why is academic education so devalued that some people don't even expect a decent post-compulsory level of teachers before they enter the classroom, even though their job is education?

What do people think we do? Just read up a bit before a class? It takes years and academic qualifications to teach a subject effectively. I'm aghast at hearing about teachers, even in the past, with no qualifications.

Yes, it can be the case of just reading up a bit before a class.
Some Schools/ Colleges have qualified specialist teachers who never teach their degree subject.
I was reading up on case studies the night before a class, literally one step in front of the students.
I had to do this to keep my job as my subject didn't run that year.
I'm not on my own, I've posted this before, there are lots of us in 6th form colleges.
We all have degrees and PGCE's QTLS.
I have learning difficulties and eventually gained a OCR level 2 Maths, which enabled me to teach. The last straw was being expected to teach (not cover) Further Maths.
I left the profession because the union didn't want to know.
"I should expect to have to step out of my comfort zone"
My ds was doing A levels at the time.
I didn't want somebody like me teaching him.

THIS is what needs to change, it's what teachers are expected to do that's wrong.