I have never had a cuddle from my 4 year old

[RogerThatOver]

My 4 year old has never given me a cuddle. She doesn't like to be touched and certainly not embraced or kissed. She will sit on my lap but usually is climbing all over me within ten seconds. She has no empathy for others at all and will reply to 'I love you' with 'well I don't love you' Tonight she sat on my lap and I looked into her eyes and told her I love her and she pushed me in the face and laughed. She seems to genuinely not understand that that hurts and looks bewildered when I told her it did. I see other 4 year olds running up to parents and grandparents after nursery and I'm starting to feel sad about the lack of affection. She shows that she loves me in that she loves spending time with me, draws me pictures, is polite and so on and I know some people are naturally less affectionate but AIBU to think her behaviour is unusual here?

I understand why many people are bringing up the possibility of an Aspergers or an ASC as being the cause of not showing affection (not to say it isn't felt, perhaps just not displayed in typical ways).

I just want to be ridiculous and say my son is 5 with HFA and is a wonderfully affectionate child, and always has been. Loves to be held and hold us, proper big I love you's with tickling and kisses.

Cuddles his friends goodbye, puts an arm round them when they fall and consoledthem, loves to hold babies hands and steal their noses 😄 just like an average 5 year old.

Sorry for being ridiculous I just want people to know, if they don't already, that people with autism can feel and display their love for and understanding of friends and family. It isn't an everyone is the same kind of job

Everything you describe about her behaviours points to ASD. It is much more often diagnosed in males than in females for the reasons mentioned by others and can be further masked as it can coexist with other special needs. Get her seen by a professional as soon as you can so you can get the help and support available.

My reading of the empathy thing (as someone who is neurodiverse) is that it's missed social cues, or as it is in my case, it's having almost too much empathy and not knowing how to handle it. My partner says I could empathise with a stone, but I think to people who don't know me very well it doesn't always come across. When other people are upset I find it very hard to deal with.

As other posters have said, a lot of these symptoms point to an Autism Spectrum Condition (much nicer than disorder!). I would take her to the doctors and write a list of your concerns. Hopefully you'll be referred to your local child and adolescent autism service. The psychologists who do the assessments see children with all kinds of conditions, so if it is something other than ASC then they will likely pick up on this and refer on.

Autism is not a diagnosis to be feared. It does make life a bit more difficult but it gives you a lot of good things too. An autistic person is still a person with thoughts, feelings and emotions, even if those are expressed in a different way to what is considered the "norm".

Parallel play is usual at 2. By 4 I'd be expecting a lot more social play. I'm going to jump on the assessment bandwagon. Everything you've said would point to ASD. Good luck op

The arranging toys sounds very familiar verbena. She will arrange them then become panicked that they're going to get disturbed. She'll be desperate for some toys but then never play with them once they've been arranged and cannot be moved or else she'll store them in her back pack and regularly check on them but never play with them.

I would get her assessed. However there’s a lot you can do to build a bond, whatever the outcome. I’ve a kid with very underdeveloped social skills, they just need more help.

• don’t ask her for cuddles or ask her for affection.
• assess her language and hearing.
• model simple behaviour for her, by just doing simple things like saying what you want her to say, or do, but not telling her to do it. If she hurts someone, say ouch, that hurt — , I’m sorry, are you ok? Do this with everything. You can get social story books.
• meet her where she is, if she likes cars, play cars with her, build up taking turns with cars, bash a car and ask if it’s ok. Don’t talk over her, listen much more, expand or delve more into how she communicates. If she just likes being quiet watching tv, do it with her. Get into her world.
• don’t take things personally. If she says I don’t love you, say oh no I’m sad, then maybe play it out with her toys if she takes notice, they say it to each other.
• do lots of to and fro games. Anything she likes, peekaboo, tickling, pulling faces, anything where you both react to each other. It’s the basis of interaction.

Oh and

• routine
• respect her need for arranging or being careful. Social connection with you is about trusting you too, you can make a big difference!

Have a lot of hope.

I think with all the things you have mentioned here that a referral to a paediatrician or cahms would be helpful. It might come to nothing but at least you'd know. My son is hfa and is not affectionate. It doesn't bother me really as I've never been that touchy feely myself (I'm NT I'm just not tactile). DH and DD find it more upsetting as they are naturally affectionate (and they are almost certainly both on the spectrum themselves). DS just doesn't get hugging. He leans his head on people if they ask for a hug . As for the empathy thing DS would laugh or walk away if I was upset or in pain. But another friend whose son has hfa says her son cries if she is upset. My point is autism is such a spectrum but from what you are saying it does warrant investigating. I didn't really believe my ds was autistic. I thought sensory issues or dyspraxia. Because it never quite fit with the "list of symptoms". But he is and when we were given his diagnosis the psych turned to me and said "I think you were expecting this?" and I though no I wasn't! .

My DS is the same with toys. Lines and lines of cars/lego/whatever, that we're not allowed to touch until he declares otherwise or moves them himself. As I said, you need an assessment, everything you describe points to ASD.

I would definitely look into having your daughter assessed for ASD.We have two children with ASD. They also have Sensory processing disorder and both don't like cuddles or any form of affection. our DS doesn't like being touched at all. It took me a very long time to get DD to even sit on my knee and now she likes me to rub her back or her head and snuggle up to her but nothing else and she certainly won't instigate any affection.

We also noticed as he became more verbal that he didn’t want presents and having spent Xmas after Xmas buying him lovely gifts, we realised he didn’t really want any. Writing an xmas list was like pulling teeth out of a hen! He just wasn’t bothered as much as a neurotypical child wouldn’t be.

My then 4yo was like this. Far from running up to be at nursery pickup, he couldn't care less about seeing me there. It was disheartening. He was really non-cuddly and very independent. We have lots if fun as a family, piggy back rides and play fun but he was not an affectionate child. And also if I said I loved him he would react the same as yours.

When he was five or six I decided that I would gradually increase the cuddles. At first he was a bit squirmy but now several years on he is really cuddly (of his own accord) and says "love you, Mummy" and means it. I think he was just a busy independent child who was older than his years abs then he learned that cuddles and affection were nice, but it didn't come naturally from young. It is very natural Mia though. So don't give up hope or stop trying. At some point she might start enjoying the affection and cuddles but if you have stopped trying she won't know she could enjoy it as she gets older, if that makes sense.

*very natural now though

Roger- also I have to say that it isn't really fair to expect your dd not to be disgusted by afterbirth blood in the shower. It would be quite scary and it's not a pleasant sight even if it couldn't be helped, would expect her to appreciate you being in Iain after giving birth either, that's an adults job/perspective, not a child's.

*i wouldn't expect her to appreciate you being in pain

I've not rtft :(
my dd hating being held, I breast fed her for 3 months without touching her, then went to bottles. although she did spend some time being packed about she was walking on her own by 10 months so not long really. when she sat on our laps she would wiggle her pelvic bones on our thighs to the point of pain or elbow to the ribs.
she didn't recoil when her hair was brushed or bathed but she visibly did when touched by others (stiffened up, you could almost see her hair stand up on end).
for decades my coffee friends would joke that dd certainly would never let a man touch her or become a mother....well she did and well she is a fabulous mom!!!
she says it's "different" when I touch her soooooooo don't feel all alone out there everything could be fine.
I began to notice her nurturing side at close to 20 when she bought herself a pup....she was very good to her and it warmed my heart and that of my coffee mates.

Op lots of people have said it could be Autism or Aspergers and you haven’t even addressed this, are you concerned? Or are hoaxing here?

Are you hoaxing by asking the above because its obvious from the OP the poster is concerned about ASD.

Another dimension to the empathy issue is that there are different forms of empathy.

So some autistic people may not feel it automatically, the way others do, but if you explain "this happened, and it made me feel that way", they'll understand. Sometimes very easily, which makes it a fairly easy adaptation to make once you know about it, provided you don't need spontaneous empathy.

The hyperempathic overwhelm thing - which it doesn't sound like OP's daughter has, but I wouldn't rule anything out - is also something that can be worked with once it's known about.

I've known autistic people - I'm related to a couple - who are abusive due to lashing out when they feel another person's pain. Because they get the full force of the pain but feel powerless to do anything about it.

However else I feel about these people, I do recognise that they've been badly let down by the failure of anyone to recognise that they needed guidance on how to respond appropriately.

These days, thankfully, there's a bit more of a chance of catching people who might develop this problem earlier. And helping them work with their empathy, develop coping mechanisms for high-stress situations, and insist on others working with their needs too, rather than expecting them to just "know" what to do and somehow choose to be "normal".

I'm a highly demonstrative autistic, and can't cope with the company of autistic people who are uncomfortable with expression of emotion. Similarly, I'm highly touch-seeking, and for that reason struggle to spend much time with autistic people who happen to be averse to touch. I don't feel badly towards either group, we're just not best placed to be close friends, that's all.

Because of my experience of that, I want to say that it's ok for you to have emotional needs that conflict with your daughters sensory/emotional/cognitive/whatever needs. That's part of the risk of having children, whether autistic or not. Sometimes they simply aren't so compatible as individuals, and provided they're loved, respected, and treated as an equal to any more compatible family members, it's fine.

If she does turn out to have an aversion to touch or to displays of emotion, and that upsets you (as it would me, a lot), don't feel bad for feeling bad. As long as you're treating her right - and there's no reason to think you won't; you seem very thoughtful - you're allowed your feelings about a chance mismatch between the two of you.

She has no sympathy for others pain. After I gave birth to baby DS she was not remotely bothered that I was in pain but was preoccupied and disgusted by seeing me losing blood in the shower. She has no tact and will often tell her older sister she looks a mess or her picture isn't very good then look bewildered when her sister is upset by these comments

She's 4!!!

I have AS, so maybe I'm not the best person to comment. But the physical contact stuff is exactly what my mother complained to me about my whole life! So, whatever the reason, do not punish her for it, or criticise her for it. You might as well be criticising her for not speaking Latvian, if she does has AS.

But 'lack of empathy' is NOT an autistic trait. I'm going to have that printed on a t shirt.

We often have to be taught how NTs expect us to respond to feelings of empathy, or struggle because we feel overwhelmed at the 'overly empathetic' responses (which can be physically painful), or have delayed emotional processing, which means we don't necessarily understand which emotion we're experiencing at the point at which we experience it. That's all.

I’m a child psychologist - do take your daughter to the GP and ask to be referred for an ASD assessment. She is certainly showing enough traits to warrant this.

Nowhere have I suggested I criticise or punish her for it, of course I don't

I thought she was just different to hèr older sibling but my since her younger ones have been born it's made her lack of affection much more apparent. I receive more unprompted affection from them in half hour than I have in DDs entire life. I can talk to them without analysing my phrasing to prevent them breaking down.

Nowhere have I suggested I criticise or punish her for it, of course I don't

If that was in response to me, I'm sorry. I was just thinking about my own experience and I was criticised and punished for it.

She sounds like shes on the autistic spectrum to me. I would look into local groups for parents of ASD kids and build yourself a support network, also speak to the school about referring her to a paediatrucian for assessment x

Ok, I think I flagged up 'lack of empathy' and I feel I need to reply to some of the comments.

I am sorry, because I know that people with ASC (I like using condition not disorder, hadn't heard that before) can be very caring and feeling of others, and can also be very cuddly.

What I meant was that often young children with ASC often don't respond when they see someone else in pain/upset. Or they don't understand why telling their sister that her picture is rubbish will upset her.

This is obviously for a whole host of reasons, including that they may not recognise the facial expression that the other person has represents pain/hurt, and they need to be taught what different fcial expressions/responses mean.
They also may not understand how their words effect others, and may need teaching on social norms of expressing an opinion.
They can also be overwhelmed by emotion as others have said.

I will be careful to avoid the stereotype in future!

if you do some research on ASC in girls, you wil find there are some key differences in boys and girls.

One that really struck me is imaginative play. Typically lack of imaginative play is a flag for ASC, but in girls they do use imaginative, play, but they tend to use it in a very particular way. For example, they put all their barbies out and create a world. That world has very specific parameters that they have set, all the barbies have their place. They get very distressed if someone comes along and 'plays' with them and moves the barbies from the 'correct' places. They may use imaginative play to act out standard social scenarios in order to process how they work, re-acting things that have happened to them.