To think that older, wealthier people should be paying more tax and NI than younger?

[Creambun2]

So various suggestions, which will probably come to nothing, that young people should pay less tax and national insurance than than older people, presumably with a links to actual incomes maintained.

What do you think? I am in favour as I think that young people are being done over really. Unaffordable housing, educations expenses etc etc.

Of course according to many boomer types this is all their fault and they have no money for housing due to buying a coffee and having a phone

Certainly not true for me Bluntness. My comments were based on nice lifestyles of my parents and in-laws, contrasted by the struggles of my son's generation. My generation (49,) are generally OK I think. We have not had the easy ride our parents did/do but are nowhere near as shat on as our children are/will be.

Ok & what were you earning when you bought your first house & how much did it cost?

I bought my first flat 27 years ago. A nice but nothing special 1 bedroom in a nice but far from exclusive area of glasgow. I paid £35k. At the time, I was working for BT in an unskilled but comparatively well paid job for what it was. My base salary was in the mid-high teens but with allowances for unsociable hours and a bit of overtime i generally earned in the low 20k region.

The exact same flat as mine, just the floor above, is currently on RightMove, under offer at £129k. I also still have friends in BT. The role for permies is still only paying in the very low 20s. Most of the workers are now agency though and they get a lower hourly rate and none of the perks, so mid to high teens salary for them.

So, the flat has increased in value almost 4-fold yet the pay for the job I had then has stagnated or even gone down.

Exactly her & there is the problem.

My question was directed at another poster who was using the old "live frugally" & you too can afford a house.

That's not to say that I don't think younger generations are generally used to having nicer things, eating out more than previous generations & could be a little less credit happy. However no amount of frugality will enable the majority of people to buy a house.

Most people of fertile age can hardly afford to have children so what can we do about the low birth rates?

Well that's nothing new though is it.

YANBU. The government has plans to do this by offsetting older age care costs against housing. It will have to happen, I think, because they've shirked a proper, progressive income tax for too long. About time one of those was put in place as well, too. (Disclaimer before the usual boring accusations of envy: we are a higher earning household so we are not saying "other people" should pay more but "people like us" should pay more).

I agree that young people are getting a very raw deal - massively in debt from a university education which is increasingly the entrance level for many jobs that never used to require a degree, stupidly expensive housing etc. But I don't think a complicated tax rebate which will be costly and cumbersome to administer is the answer. Instead, look at abolishing tuition fees, reinstating a higher rate of income tax for top earners, taking measures to stop foreign investment buying pushing up property prices from the top of the chain downwards, clamp down on tax dodging, set inheritance taxes at sensible thresholds, etc etc etc. There are loads of better ways to address inter-generational unfairness than simply deciding on an arbitrary age below which everyone gets a small tax incentive.

Not all pensioners are rolling in it. My DM has a tiny pension topped up by pension credit, she would live in poverty if it weren't for us helping out with food and bills. She also has no assets as my df fucked up financially and she was dependent on him.

However wealthier pensioners shouldn't be getting all the perks they get, ridiculous to get bus passes and cold weather payments unless on pension credit.

Apparently the tax relief on pensions is about to be reduced in the November budget. The 40% relief is in the crosshairs, the saving is meant to be as much as the annual Government deficit.
As ever it won't be people currently drawing their pension, it will be people currently paying into one. Another perk lost as the older generation pulls up the drawbridge behind the young.

@ghoul

Will the old folk be able to claim back the tax they paid when young? This could be the new PPI.

Will the old folk be able to claim back the tax they paid when young?

No. But they can fuck off.

what were you earning when you bought your first house & how much did it cost?

£9k pa and £60,000 It was very very expensive on my income, which is why I worked 2 jobs (one full-time). Interest rates started at 15% but I can remember a short time at 18%

older generations don't pay for younger generations

Really?????? I don't think so - it works both ways. I'm payiong for all the babies being born & their education. Hopefully, they will pay for my pension (although this looks increasingly unlikely ...)

We all pay for each other. This is the point.

Be careful what you wish for. If you make it too expensive for older people to manage financially we'll all have to move in with our adult children

Right so if today's average salery is 27k and av house price is 230k you don't see how young people can struggle today compared to the figures you quoted?

Not to mention trying to save up a deposit while renting.

My question was directed at another poster who was using the old "live frugally" & you too can afford a house.

That's not to say that I don't think younger generations are generally used to having nicer things, eating out more than previous generations & could be a little less credit happy. However no amount of frugality will enable the majority of people to buy a house.

Actually, my post was in response to someone else's post, and so ity wasn't clear that I wasn't directly making a "live frugally and you can buy a house" post - at least that wasn't my intention.

What I meant was that I had very low expectations of my first house (and very little furniture!) and worked 2 jobs. I wasn't looking for anything fancy, and I put up with a lot. I also couldn't afford to buy until I was 30.

I agree that prices have got crazy - although my purchase in 1985 (so 30 years ago) was also very expensive in relation to my salary.

Instead, look at abolishing tuition fees, reinstating a higher rate of income tax for top earners, taking measures to stop foreign investment buying pushing up property prices from the top of the chain downwards, clamp down on tax dodging, set inheritance taxes at sensible thresholds, etc etc etc

This.

I really think inheritance tax should be increased. And people should have their property assessed for care in old age if it's needed. I fully expect to have to sell my house to move to sheltered care when I need it. Why wouldn't I? I can't live in 2 houses.

Thing is, a lot of people - of all generations - have bought the low tax thing. And now it's coming back to bite them.

It's simply a very obvious statistical fact that house prices have risen disproportionately to wages since the 1970s. You can find a ton of economic data online to support that statement. The resistance to accepting it on here is straightforwardly counterfactual, the rationalisation by those who have benefitted of their own privilege.

No matter how much anyone posts the data, though, people just still come back with the "oh, but WE worked for it" excuse. It's such a selfish, lazy, boring response.

www.economicshelp.org/blog/5709/housing/market/

Well we pay lots of Tax. More than our children (who all pay tax apart from the students). They pay more than some young people because they earn more. That’s the way it works. Housing is an issue but would be less so if prices weren’t escalated by second home owners and if s cond homes were taxed very heavily.
There are clearly people who could work but don’t and we should ensure benefits are a safety net not a lifestyle choice.
I think state pension should be deferred to 65 for men and women. I think inheritance tax should be increased significantly. I think there should be a NI increase to cover increasing healthcare costs.

We all pay for each other. This is the point

We don't though hence why educational costs, childcare etc are now so high. We are not going to agree though.

Will today's youth even be able to retire? Will there be any NHS left for them. Pensions cost the state 108 billion vs housing benefit of 27 billion in 2015. This is only going to increase as people are living longer, & I think it's unfair to place more burden on the young.

It's simply a very obvious statistical fact that house prices have risen disproportionately to wages since the 1970s. You can find a ton of economic data online to support that statement. The resistance to accepting it on here is straightforwardly counterfactual, the rationalisation by those who have benefitted of their own privilege.

Of course, it's two so des if the same coin.
Housing prices rises because there are more people needing hounding and wages stay low because there are too many people needing jobs to pay for those houses.

It's fundamental. Can't fix that with tax corrections.

Chardonnay - actually, there are quite a lot of ways in which the housing market can be manipulated to lower prices and tax rises play a critical role in some of them, e.g. greater provision of social housing. Markets aren't some fact of nature - they are man-made.

You can manipulate to some extent.

But you cannot take away to demand part of the equation.

the demand 0part sorry

My parents' generation (in their 80s) certainly did NOT have "an easy ride."
When mine bought their first house in the 1950s, at a massive squeeze because banks wouldn't take into account my mother's salary (as a teacher), they basically camped out in it for months and months. They had no money left over for furniture or carpets. Someone lent them a mattress I think, and they used an old packing case for a table.
Meals were scrambled eggs or beans on toast. They never ever went out. Can't see many of today's equivalent generation putting up with that.

Yes, things are comfortable now, but any equity they've built up is earmarked for any future care needs they have. Quite rightly, in my opinion.