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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that older, wealthier people should be paying more tax and NI than younger?

415 replies

Creambun2 · 16/10/2017 10:00

So various suggestions, which will probably come to nothing, that young people should pay less tax and national insurance than than older people, presumably with a links to actual incomes maintained.

What do you think? I am in favour as I think that young people are being done over really. Unaffordable housing, educations expenses etc etc.

Of course according to many boomer types this is all their fault and they have no money for housing due to buying a coffee and having a phone Hmm

OP posts:
BlueSapp · 17/10/2017 10:45

There is a generation of people in between these baby boomers and the younger generation now who will bear the brunt of these changes and end up in poverty.

I certainly didn’t have any advantages, houses were expensive tuition fees at uni, a student loan I will never pay off. Don’t have a pension.

No designer things around here, the younger generation are all about labels but yet they have no money! Strange.

stevie69 · 17/10/2017 10:53

Just wondering .... I keep hearing the term 'Baby Boomer'. Do I qualify? I'm not exactly sure who the BBs are Blush

OCSockOrphanage · 17/10/2017 10:53

Thinking about what I wrote a few posts above, it's striking me that a most of the friends and acquaintances who now find themselves in relatively comfortable circumstances as they approach or begin retirement either went overseas in their youth to work or were public servants. The public servants worked on relatively modest salaries but now benefit from index-linked pensions; the others went overseas for the money and saved hard. My mum, who did neither, has a ninimum state pension and pension credit, plus a derisory NHS payment for 15 years of mental health nursing until she was 78.

JoanBartlett · 17/10/2017 10:55

whisky, rather as my father did. He spent £130k of life savings in his last year for dementia care at home(and died at home as he wished which I was very pleased about) and we were about to do equity release (from a hosue in the NE so not worth that much). There was also 40% inheritance tax to pay as he died soon after our mother and before laws changed and he had been paying 40% income tax on his pension income. I am not sure he didn't give back in that case as he was very heavily taxed. In the 1970s he was paying 65% upper rate income tax on his NHS salary and 83% income tax (a huge amount) on very modest building society savings income. He also paid for our university maintenance which as most people know is about half your university cost - the other half the fees was free in those days so he did benefit from not funding that half.

it is quite hard to pick the group of people we feel have been badly or particularly well treated when you take it over their whole lives. However I certainily accept some of the OAP benefits should go entirely and perhaps just go to people over 85 and we increase state pensions by less, say a bit below inflation each year.

Perhaps if we all just try to help others including our parents and our children the world will be a better place. I am happy to give everything away to my off spring in due course as I don't really need much.

FaFoutis · 17/10/2017 11:20

Stevie if you were born in 69 you don't. But I think it is a state of mind rather than birth year in reality.

BlueSapp · 17/10/2017 11:34

This proposal is a fucking joke, so someone with a family and responsibility is going the have less money than someone without any when these two people are on the same salary!

Also there has been so much work done to take ageism out of the work place and now these Tory’s want to put it back in!

So you will end up punished because you have not been in your career for as long as other people the same age as you!

Absolute bollocks this is a disgusting discrimination policy from idiots so out of touch and blatantly trying to bribe a set of people.

JoanBartlett · 17/10/2017 11:37

It is going to be very very hard to do this. I should check when you stop paying NI. I think it's state retirement age so for my father who worked to 77 full time it was age 65. I felt it was fair for NI he stopped paying at age 65. I have been paying NI for about 33 years without a break, full time work which is a fair bit with many years of it left to come to age 67 (my state retirement age).

The Governmenti s going to annoy loads of people whatever it does and making £25k the threshold to start repaying student debt was such a tiny small move which hardly helps anyone but costs the state loads that it was hardly worth doing.

OnionShite · 17/10/2017 11:39

2.They have actually been paying tax all their working lives

Much as I'm opposed to OPs suggestion, people really need to stop saying this because actually, some of them have and some of them haven't. Some of them also have had rather short working lives. Generalisations are not at all helpful here.

scaryteacher · 17/10/2017 11:49

www.telegraph.co.uk/tax/news/crazy-tax-system-means-800000-people-pay-higher-tax-rate-someone/

Thought this was interesting about where levels of taxation hit. Those who are older and higher up the career ladder may be paying marginal rates of 62%.

OnionShite · 17/10/2017 11:53

Wonder what age and income band the £1 million earners are most likely to be found in...

Puzzledandpissedoff · 17/10/2017 11:53

there is a massive social care bill coming for older age as people live longer but not healthier, and no funds to pay it ... The answer that will happen ... is that older people's housing equity will be used to pay for their care

Frankly I don't think this would be any bad thing; it seems right to expect the state to pay for normal healthcare, a pension and so on, but years of wall to wall care is something else again

And FWIW I was disgusted by the outcry when Theresa May suggested before the election that pensioners' assets should be used to pay for exactly this. Leaving it to the kids is great if it hasn't had to be spent beforehand, but we really can't expect everything to be state funded

peggyjones50 · 17/10/2017 11:54

Plenty of graduate jobs start at 25k and over

aviva.wd1.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/External/job/York/Actuarial-Trainee_R-54752-1?referrer=102

This you only need a B in maths and isn't in london and starts on 26k.

If you look at the London jobs with banks or consultancy you can easily earn 30k+ with a 10k signing bonus and a yearly bonus with heaps of other perks. Of course, you needed to study a proper subject and not winemaking or golf course management.

This is way more than my pension. True they have housing costs and my mortgage is paid off but this is just their starting salary and will only increase from this as they gain experience.

BMW6 · 17/10/2017 11:56

Stupid proposal OP. For starters what would be the age specific definition of "old" and "young"?
I might think young is defined as under 21 and old as over 80. I am sure nearly everyone would disagree!

peggyjones50 · 17/10/2017 11:58

And FWIW I was disgusted by the outcry when Theresa May suggested before the election that pensioners' assets should be used to pay for exactly this. Leaving it to the kids is great if it hasn't had to be spent beforehand, but we really can't expect everything to be state funded

We've paid our stamp all our life and now expect what was promised in return - cradle to grave health care. Theresa is just wanting to strip vulnerable people of their assets and dignity in order to funnel it to private companies.

If we don't get what was promised we should have a refund of all of our stamp along with interest.

OnionShite · 17/10/2017 12:09

Peggy, nobody is saying some graduate jobs don't pay 25k or more. They're saying that the large majority of graduates aren't in them and are being paid much less, either in graduate only fields that don't pay as much or in non-graduate fields. You were completely wrong to say the average university graduate starts on 25k with no experience: the fact that a few do isn't evidence of that.

And your remarks about golf course management are asinine. There are simply not enough of the jobs you mentioned for most young people to have any chance at getting one.

If we don't get what was promised we should have a refund of all of our stamp along with interest.

Excellent, provided of course you also pay for everything you've already had plus interest.

JoanBartlett · 17/10/2017 12:09

One thing you can be sure of, it's very risky to leave it up to the state to support you.

On rents this article from the Timers yesterday is quite interesting:

"Far from being solved, the problem of rent has become even greater

Paul Johnson

Twenty years ago, fewer than one person in ten lived in private rented accommodation. One in five does so today. Among those aged between 25 and 34, the proportion renting in the private sector has tripled to over 30 per cent.

That is an extraordinary social change occurring over a short period and overturning decades of change in the other direction. Private renting had been in decline since the early years of the 20th century. Most rental properties ended up in the social sector, while home ownership rose generation by generation. That has gone into sharp reverse. Fewer than half of 25 to 34-year-olds are now owner-occupiers, down from two thirds only 20 years ago.

The change has been especially dramatic for those on middling incomes. High-earners are still very likely to own their own home. For the poorest, the shift has been out of social renting and into private renting. But for the middle-income group, those on modest levels of earnings, the shift has been away from owner-occupation and into private renting.

This is having, and will continue to have, profound economic, social and political consequences. As more people lack capital in the form of housing, perhaps they will become less enamoured of capitalism. If middle-earners now feel more in common with their fellow renters among the poor, and less in common with high-earning owner-occupiers, perhaps their political allegiances will change. The march towards the “property-owning democracy” of which generations of politicians have dreamt has gone into sharp reverse.

One particular and immediate consequence comes through our social security system. If you are in rented accommodation and your income is low enough, then you can receive housing benefit to help to cover your rent. Growing numbers of private tenants, as well as increasing rents in the social sector, have pushed up the costs of this part of the benefit system to quite eye-watering levels.

Government will spend something like £24 billion on housing benefit this year. To put that figure in perspective, it’s three times what we spend on roads, it’s about £8 billion more than the entire police budget and it’s pretty close to what we spend every year on educating more than four million pupils in 20,000 or so primary schools. A government department whose only job was to disburse housing benefit payments would be among the biggest spenders in Whitehall.

It remains the case that more of this money is spent on the generally poorer population of social tenants than is spent on private renters, but that balance is changing. Spending on housing benefit for private tenants has doubled in real terms over the past decade. More than a quarter of all private renters — that’s one and half million households — receive some housing benefit.

You wouldn’t expect these facts to have escaped the eagle eye of the Treasury and, indeed, they haven’t. The inexorable rise in spending has, in fact, been halted by £3 billion-worth of cuts implemented since 2011, with more in the pipeline. One of the most important changes has been to reduce the maximum amount of rent that housing benefit will cover. The result is that many fewer people on very low incomes get the whole of their rent paid than would have been the case without the reforms. This is clearly a significant contributor to the financial difficulties faced by many poor families.

Yet that fact has to be set against the sheer cost of the system. It remains the case that, in high-rent areas, a family with one child can still receive as much as £15,000 a year to cover the rent on a two-bedroom property.

What we have is a system that satisfies nobody. It costs the taxpayer a fortune. It leaves many very low-income people in financial difficulties, while still paying out large sums of money and supporting some to live in areas where many not on housing benefit cannot afford to live. It can also have a damaging effect on work incentives since these large benefit payments are withdrawn as earnings rise.

Recent reforms have introduced a bizarre feature into the system, which means that the maximum amount of rent that is covered depends on rents in their area in 2012. This is baked into the system and will mean an increasing divergence between actual housing costs in different areas and benefit entitlements. Those living in areas where rents rise quickly will find life increasingly difficult. There may be a case for breaking the link between actual rents and benefit payments. It lessens the risk that the benefit system will itself drive up rents. But this is a very odd way of breaking that link.

The future also looks worrying. We don’t know what will happen to the present young generation of renters. Many no doubt will become owner-occupiers later in life. But if they don’t, they will end up eventually in retirement facing costs of rent, costs that the taxpayer may well end up paying through the benefit system. That’s expensive for the taxpayer and drives a coach and horses through a pension policy aimed at keeping people off means-tested benefits in retirement and providing them with clear incentives to save.

In the end, of course, the benefit system is simply trying to deal with the mess left by other failings in the economy and in the housing market. The burden it is bearing has grown as the private rented sector has grown, and it has grown far beyond anything it was designed to bear. William Beveridge called it the problem of rent. It is a problem that has become much more pressing over the past decade.

Paul Johnson is director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Follow him on @PJTheEconomist"

peggyjones50 · 17/10/2017 12:26

Yes I was wrong that average graduates start at 25k, its actually 26.5k www.theguardian.com/careers/careers-blog/graduate-jobs-and-pay-set-to-rise and that was back in 2013 so it's probably much higher now.

Way more than my measly 23k.

Sign me up? Where do I get a refund of all my stamp paid plus interest? I've barely taken out anything from public money, no help to buy or tax credits or housing benefit.

OnionShite · 17/10/2017 12:34

Once again peggy, you're wrongly conflating graduate level jobs with jobs that graduates have. Not the same thing. Until you understand this, you'll keep being wrong. Additionally, you might also show some concern for young people who aren't graduates: they are, after all, above half of their cohort.

And help to buy only exists because of generational property shafting. It's a very bad thing. Those of us who were stupid and venal enough to be born too late to buy pre boom would be infinitely better served by an end to the continued state propping up of the property bubble (primarily benefitting guess who?) than we would by being given a couple of grand to throw at someone older than us to buy a house for much more than it cost in real terms a couple of decades ago. Same is true of housing benefit to a great extent. If you think the primary beneficiaries of that are the people who need it to get somewhere to live, you're doing it wrong.

peggyjones50 · 17/10/2017 12:45

Shite i'm fully aware that not every graduate gets a graduate level job. You would hardly expect someone that spent 3 years "studying" dance or printmaking to get a traditional graduate job. They are chalk and cheese comparing a "modern degree" subject to a traditional and respected subject.

Help to buy is a bad thing, you sure are right - my pension that my husband worked for almost 30 years to provide for me is paying to give people free money to get a house! This didn't exist for us, we just had to work hard for every single penny to buy a home. I used to make all of my own clothes, a skill that the younger generation would see below them.

SentimentalLentil · 17/10/2017 12:55

You know help to buy is a loan right? They don't give you the money, they loan you the money because deposits are ridiculous. Or you can get shouted ownership which means the government gets a share in the equity of your house.

FormerlyFrikadela01 · 17/10/2017 12:58

peggyjones it's quite clear that you are the type of person who inspires the older generation baby boomers I'm alright Jack trope. To you the younger generation are lazy and feckless and like I said in my last post you can thank yourself for raising us to be that way Hmm

And inicidentally I have made my own clothes. It cost significantly more than buying from supermarkets and Primark and took far longer than I have time for what with working full time and all.

FaFoutis · 17/10/2017 12:58

my pension that my husband worked for almost 30 years to provide for me

Peggy I'm thinking you might be taking the piss.

OnionShite · 17/10/2017 13:01

If you're fully aware peggy why do you keep mentioning salaries for graduate level jobs, held by only a small minority of young people, as some kind of great boon?

Also, as I pointed out earlier, you sound like a fuckwit yarning on about dance etc. For one thing, some non-traditional degrees would fit one for a better paid career than some traditional ones. For another, some traditional professional paths just aren't that well paid at the start. I'm a solicitor and of course earn more than 25k now, but the starting salary in my virtually all graduate industry (you can qualify as a legal exec) was well below that and still is in most sectors of law.

You mention free money. That's exactly what most of the equity in your house is. If you decided to downsize and flogged it to someone who'd got a couple of grand from the state through a help to buy scheme, that money would be going to you not them, and it would be an unearned, undeserved gift to you. Again, look at where the money from these things actually ends up. Clue- it isn't in the hands of the people purchasing the homes.

Lastly, making one's own clothes these days is an expensive luxury. Much cheaper to get things second hand from Ebay. You can't have treats like making your own clothes if you're on a zero hour contract and paying twice what boomers did for housing. You're completely out of touch, Marie Antoinette.

OCSockOrphanage · 17/10/2017 13:05

Rising population, smaller households, inadequate housing starts (social or private) and you have a class demand-led shortage, resulting in increasing prices. Despite this, the average price of a property in (IIRC) Middlesborough is still under £40,000 so it's hardly out of reach for people on very modest pay.

peggyjones, I think you may have to accept that the promise of cradle to grave health care will eventually be limited to medical treatment only; the social and housing elements of care home costs will have to be funded in some other way. The immense scale of the dementia problem, which still has many years to play out, is a time bomb. If you own property, I think it has to be expected that after death it refunds a % of care costs rather than being an inheritance. There could, I feel, be a useful role for unions to play in this regard, whether acting as a mutual for the membership to save for care rather than leaving it to for-profit operators. Can't really see a single easy answer.

OCSockOrphanage · 17/10/2017 13:14

...classic... obviously