Boss says i only have 5 days holiday next year, all year!!

[Pickleypickles]

Hello lovely mumsnetters/my own personal employment advisors

I work 3 days a week (just changed hours when i came back from maternity leave at the start or september)
I work monday wednesday friday as thats what i was offered because it covers everyone elses days off.
My boss said he used to gov website and my holiday entitlement is 16.8 days (he is right) he then said i have to take the bank holidays out of that and save 3 days for christmas.
That leave 5.8 days holiday for a whole year, not even two weeks.
Is this right? It seems really unfair the lady i work with also only does 3 days but a monday isnt one of them and she gets all hers (except christmas so 13.8 days) to play with.
I feel like im being punished for working a monday

That's what my boss would do, but is notoriously stingy. Would they let you take any unpaid leave? She is ok with that.

And if so, get that agreement in writing so you can take say 5 days unpaid on top.

Does the 16.8 days also include your pro rat’ed entitlement to bank holidays? working 60% this would be 4.8 days (rounded up to 5), of this you would then need to take any bank holidays that fall on your normal working days from your overall holiday entitlement.

Well yes this is correct and why a lot of part timers don't want to work Mondays.

I would speak to your boss and see if you can take some unpaid or work another day and then take time off in lieu

Do your full time colleagues take their B/H out of their annual leave entitlement? If they do then tgats fair enough but if not then you shouldn't have to do that. They need to pro-rata your bank holiday entitlement also so if you full time colleagues get 25 days + b/H say then you are entitled to the equivalent for your hours but hour will then need to subtract the bank holiday days from that. Does that make sense?
Basically you should not be disadvantaged by being part time.

Only 7 bank holidays next year fall on Mon-Wed-Fri next year, so I think you should be left with 9.8 days holiday. You have to take 3 of those at Christmas, leaving you with 6.8 days to take as you wish. It's a bit rubbish but unfortunately I don't think he's doing anything wrong legally. You could give ACAS a call to double-check though: www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1410

What does your contract say about holiday entitlement and bank holidays? My previous post is what we do at my work but we give above statutory holiday entitlement

I am in your position also however my boss allows me to work one of my off days in lieu of Monday's.

You are suffering because a disproportionately large amount of your days are BHs (all Mondays and Good Friday), leaving only 6 days (you round up any part days) after BHs and Christmas is taken into account for you to use as you choose.

But you will get more than 2 weeks holiday, because any week where there is a bank holiday, a week off will only cost you two of your days.

Also, you should get back Christmas Day, which is on a Tuesday next year to use at another time.

Yeah they take them out of their annual leave but it still works out that they gwt 4 weeks holiday after the bank holidays have been taken out.
I thought it would be right. I cant really afford any unpaid leave and boss wont let me work a different day.
If i say im not working a monday anymore does that give him grounds to dismiss me ? Or does he have to offer me two days a week or a different day?

Yes this is correct (except he has to round it up to 6 days.

For someone who works three days per week that's actually 2 weeks holiday.

17 holiday days - 7 bank holiday days - 3 Christmas = 7 days left

Yeah but everyone else i work with gets 4 weeks

What is a full timer's annual leave entitlement? Is it 20 days plus 8 BH?

In which case yes he's right - whenever a BH falls on one of your working days this has to come out of your annual entitlement ( same as a FTer) - so this year 7 BH fall on a working day for you, leaving you 9.8. They are entitled to insist you take 3 at Christmas (again same as a FTer) - presumably the period between Christmas and New year? So that leaves you 6.8 to take - just over 2 weeks if you took them all together.

Yes it’s right. If you take your holiday days on back holiday weeks you can have 3 weeks holiday.

It’s normal I’m afraid and it is why Monday isn’t a good day for part timers.

I get it in reverse. Because I don’t work Mondays I am entitled to extra holiday days (pro rata)

Resulting in 19 days for me this year.

Well they don't get 4 weeks if they have to take 3 at Christmas - they get 3 and a bit weeks. You get two and a bit because you are working a proportionally larger number of BHs than others.

You need to make sure everyone else is getting their BHs taken off them too.
I work Monday, Wednesday and Friday too but I get 14 days and my bank holidays don't get taken from me

It's a pain in the arse, you do get the same as the others but they just get more flexibility on when they take theirs than you do (more of yours are already allocated for you).

What you could do is see if anyone wants leave the week of the bank holidays; then swap your day off with them? So, like:

Mary wants the week of the August BH off but works Tues, Thurs and Sat (she'd have to use up 3 days of AL for this as she doesn't work a Monday anyway so she gets it as a day off)

You work Mon, Weds, Fri but HAVE to take the Mon off and you don't really want to

You swap with her Tuesday. Someone is off on the monday on an AL day (Mary) but you are covering her Tuesday so you still work your three days that week, only one person is taking the AL day instead of both of you so your boss has less cover to find. Mary isn't disadvantaged as she still needs to use 3 days that week anyway and would be off that day whatever happened, plus your boss has fewer staff off on the Tuesday (as you'd be in instead of Mary).

Literally the only downside to that is for your boss that he has to find time in the year for you to take off, but if it means that you can be more productive and happier then that's what I'd do as a boss. In fact I've done it for people on their behalf before so that they don't get so screwed over by their working pattern.

Hope that makes sense! Obviously if you've got nobody off that week then it is moot but lots of people want to take time off over Easter etc so you might be able to wangle a couple of days back that way.

Why do you have to take 3 off for Xmas? The place is shut for 3 Mondays, Wednesdays or Fridays that aren't bank holidays? That would be over a week?

Surely the 3 days at Christmas are the 3 that fall between Christmas and new year? So you'd only have to take 2 days leave because only 2 of those days are working days for you?

You're spot on, Titchy.

Part-timers lose out because leave is calculated the same, regardless of whether you work 24 hours over 3 days or 5. You still get 24 hours x 4 weeks, but the BHs are pro rata. This gives 38.4 hours of entitlement for a 24 hour week.

For someone working 5 days pw, this 7.68 days, but for someone working 3 days, it's only 4.8.

To add to the confusion, there are several methods of pro rating BH hours for p/t workers, and they all produce slightly different results.

I will be in the same boat as you in a couple of weeks, as I'm reducing my hours to 24 pw over 4 days, one of which will be a Monday. The way they work it at my place is by adjusting the annual leave, but not including the BHs in it, iykwim. It's a bit immaterial, as I get 31 days leave, plus another week unpaid which takes it up to 36.

DP is a payroll manager and shit hot at doing this sort of calculation. If you want to post your days and hours, I'll ask him to check it for you when he gets home!

It's a bugger to get your head round, I haven't yet found a way to explain it to colleagues that's easy to understand. And when we had an innumerate manager, she used to ask me to do the calculations for her!

In Ireland we get out statutory holidays plus bank holidays. Usually 20 plus the 8 or so bank holidays we get. This seems mad to me....

You get 5.6 weeks * 3 days = 16.8 days.

You work MWF.

Bank holidays:

• Mon Jan 1st (15.8)
• Friday March 30th (14.8)
• Monday April 2nd (13.8)
• Monday May 7th (12.8)
• Monday May 28th (11.8)
• Monday August 27th (10.8)
• Tuesday December 25th (you wouldn't work then!)
• Wednesday December 26th (9.8)

So you have 9.8 days of holiday.

If you take 3 days extra at Christmas (which ones?), you could be off

Monday 24th (1st day) Tuesday 25th, Wednesday 26th, Thursday 27th, Friday 28th (2nd day), Monday 31st (3rd day)

So you are off from Saturday the 22nd of December till the 2nd of January 2019. That leaves you with in fact 6.8 days of holiday. Not 5 days.

Sorry havent read the whole thread so someone might have said this already. I used to work PT including Mondays and had a similar issue, but I was allowed to work another day instead of Monday on the weeks when there was a BH. This meant I wasn't forced to take a BH as part of my leave - would this be possible for you, even for some of the BHs?

@Pickleypickles are you salaried or hourly paid?