to think my 2 year old's behaviour is extreme?

[Ivehadtonamechangeforthis]

My DD is 2.5 years old. I'm worried her behaviour isn't normal even for a two year old. I've spoken to four different health visitors and they've all said it's normal but I'm finding myself transforming from someone who never shouted or lost my temper to now I feel like I spend half the day shouting :(

This morning, I took my DD to a toddler group so she had 1.5 hours of running around inside and out and thoroughly enjoyed herself. Since coming home she's repeatedly pushed her one year old sister over, rocked the highchair with one year old in it until she pushed it over!! Pushed the airer full of clothes over repeatedly and threw clothes around the room. Climbed on toys and table continuously until she eventually slipped and fell off and hurt herself. I start off by telling her calmly to stop doing whatever it is she is doing and I explain why and it eventually escalates until I'm shouting because she just smirks when I tell her to stop doing something.

I noticed at the toddler group she was the only one who wouldn't sit to the table for juice and biscuits and kept running around the room.

Normal?

Ds was still napping at that age,she could be over tired.

we would time my 2 yo old in her cot for anything physical like pushing, hitting, kicking etc. Immediately, first time. Find what they hate - being ignored, etc, and devise a clear menu of consequences.

I stopped losing my temper so much when I knew how i was going to react to every trigger - push sister, cot for 2 mins, says sorry, comes back. push airer, cot for 2 mins etc.

Whatever you do, do it consistently and act immediately. I was much less tough on my first dc and put up with years of it!

Sounds normal - if very trying. Do you have any options for time off?

I have two DC close together in age and the rivalry can be pretty intense. I think your DD sounds normal. My DC1 is now 6 ,no SN, but he is so energetic I find him utterly exhausting. At around two I spent my life excusing myself because they are busy leaping up walls and tearing round the supermarket/bus/cafe/whatever. My parents say my DC are super energetic compared to their other grandchildren but I find it more manageable if they both have lots of structure, strict bedtime routine, and a lot of exercise, I literally take them out and make them run, no screen time except at weekends helps too. Hang in there, I found it really hard at around two and a half but it gets better.

Sounds normal for an over tiered child especially after a busy morning. How much sleep does she get?

It does sound normal to me - not in the sense that every 2yo is like this, but in the sense that some are and it doesn't mean she has special needs.

I think at 2.5 she's nearly able to understand consequences of her actions - 'if I do this, then this happens'. If not, she'll soon be able to. So the naughty step or reward chart methods start working. Decide which one you prefer and stick to it!

I think you need to make her sleep a priority. All children need plenty of sleep, your HV are just saying that as they are out of suggestions.
Could you afford a sleep coach/consultant?

Where were you when she undid the babies bottle and poured it out? As someone said up thread you need to be more on the ball. The butter thing I wouldn’t worry about, laugh and distract for that.

fish i do the same - it will get better. DC1 was a big slapper/pusher of me, over tired, anything didn't go her own way, very demanding. She's a wonderful, creative, brilliant 7 year old now. It tapered off every month after 3.

Fish, Running and KH sympathies to you! Let's hope this 'phase' is a short one.

I have spoken to GP about her behaviour but none of it seems to give them any red flags. She's way ahead of all her milestones and always has been so they seem to have just labelled her as very bright with lots of energy.

Time out in a cot or anywhere else didn't work for us, as from 18 months they both dived headlong out of there, or would immediately get into mischief. Removal of privileges worked best.

DD1 was very hard work (they’re both adopted though birth sisters). When she was at her 18 months assessment the doctor assessing her described her as the most active child she had ever seen who didn’t have ADHD. (Sometimes I wonder about that, she’s 8 now and has Attachment Disorder.) She just wouldn’t keep still at all, and used to hurt herself regularly.

At least at that stage she was an only child. DD2 came to us at age 1, when DD1 was just under 4. She was a breeze by comparison though very stubborn (no change there!).

All we could do was supervise very closely and try to use distraction. But she was just like your DD at playgroups, not sitting still.

I have an almost 2.5 year like that. An absolute whirlwind of energy...or 'spirited' as some have put it. She's a smart cookie and only really does crazy stuff once to test the boundary.

When she's doing something I don't like, I tell her firmly to stop then literally remove her from the situation. I use a 'naughty step' too and she gets it.

I've had to get a bit creative on ways to engage her, she's a bit different from my eldest. Things like the peg basket and a towel kept her busy - pegging the pegs neatly around the edges. Also pegging them in colour groups. Quite fiddly toys are good. Also pouring water and stirring stuff.

Standing I was putting my one year old in her cot. Two year old is so quick to get up to mischief it seems to literally take seconds.

I think she is enjoying negative attention and keeps goading you to get a reaction. Could you try a removal of something she likes/put her on a naughty step instead of shouting. She is in the lime light if you are so focused on her. Positive reinforcement for good behaviour. She is only 2 so it takes time to establish boundaries that she understands.

well, my DD can get out of her cot too - it's a signal. I also close her door firmly, and she can't get out of that. I do think if you have the type of child that barrels out from a time out/thinking spot (as both of mine do) then a secure door and a baby proofed bedroom is a good idea.

The discipline method as such doesn't really matter as long as it's consistent - it's effectively dog training at this age, I do A, and B happens and I am not keen on B.

Occupy and distract.
But also talk to her.
Explain what you are going to do that day. The schedule.
Talk about whta behaviour you expect. Gently and clearly. With no 'no' or 'don't' just clear and positive
When you are about to do something tell her what you are all going to do.
Remind her of the behaviour that is needed or the fun focus of the activity.
If she doesn't do it, remind her gently and in positive words. I.e. We are sitting down for lunch now. So you need to sit on your chair with your whole bottom, and I will put your sandwich on the plate.
It is good to sit down when you are eating.

You need to help her with independent play, so that's you can do other jobs/caring etc.
And it seems that needs some work on,
She doesn't know what to do with herself, hence the distructive behaviour you describe.
So you need to either occupy her and guide her activity closely or you need to work on her independent play.
Making a cordoned off area into a yes place. Where there is nothing that she isn't allowed to play with is the first step of this.
You should do this with your youngetsbnow also. (But a seperate space)
Read about yes places
Janet Lansbury has a lot to say and help on this

Once your daughter understands your expectations and has a safe place to explore and play you will find it easier.

I haven't done so well on the yes place / independent play, but my son definetley responds better in every situation if I explain what we are going to do, and what is expected of him. And the gentle reminding as required.

Normal (and honestly I don't think she's really smirking but I can imagine it really seems that way when you're at the end of your tether). Two under three years old is very, very tough.

Oh yes, the smirking when getting told off

I remember that well

Sorry, but it sounds pretty similar to my experience of DD. Agree with PP that she may still need naps, DD was starting to drop her afternoon nap at that age but when she missed it she was horrible

sounds exhausting and not normal to me.

chat with GP?

I have a DD with complex needs (ASD and severe learning diffs). At almost three she was non verbal, non sleeping, lots of other issues. I saw several HV's who all declared that she is 'normal' and that every child is different.

If you have concerns and think you need support, I would only recommend sidelining the HV and see the GP.

Most HVs have very poor understanding of atypical child development.

I think it’s normal attention seeking behaviour. Don’t take this the wrong way but do you think she may have found doing “naughty” things is a good way of getting your attention? I wonder if she’s jealous of her baby sister.

If she's miles ahead then she does sound bright and is probably bored. Can she go to nursery a few days a week for more stimulus?

I agree with the poster upthread who said 2yos seem like such babies when you have older dc. All this talk of consequences and negative attention-seeking and smirking doesn't recognise that 2yos are still in their cognitive infancy. This particular 2yo has been displaced as the baby very early in her life and it may be that you expect 'better' (= more mature) behaviour from her than she is capable of showing.

Thought experiment: imagine she is a boy. Would you consider her energy levels and behaviour to be quite so extreme?

How is her language, how are her fine motor skills?

I wonder if maybe it's because you aren't making it seem like a serious enough thing to do and she isn't taking you seriously. Mine is a little older than that now, but we still did the same when she was 2. If she pushed someone or ran around the room destroying things, I wouldn't just tell her to stop or take her to another room for a minute, but she would have to sit out and calm herself down for as long as it took for her to be able to talk with me about what happened and be willing to make amends for what she did. Sometimes that means she sits out for 30 minutes until she calms down and we can have a good talk about and then she has to immediately go to the person she hurt and apologise and check that they are okay or she has to tidy up the room. She can't do anything else until she does that or she sits out again until she's ready to. That's been really effective. She's 4 now and she really does stop and think before she does things and when she does something she shouldn't, she immediately recognises it most times and apologises right away and sorts it out. Only sitting out for a minute on the 2nd attempt at pushing seems like she's getting let off pretty easy for doing something really unkind to me. I think even at 2 you can expect more of her.

Normal - but the bloody difficult end of normal. Don't feel guilty for struggling to keep your temper. This is a really tough stage.

If she wants to tantrum about stuff like butter, make sure she's not near something she can hurt herself on and then let her shout. After a certain point they're not really capable of calming down until the storm blows itself out. They have sod all control over their impulses and emotions at this age - you have just ended up with one that's bright, lively and into everything, so she has a lot of impulses to fail to control IYSWIM.

Think about practical changes you can make that will reduce the need for constant battles. For example, I struggled massively with my toddler tormenting the cat. He didn't understand about hurting, he just thought it was funny, and yes, he did the smirk. I was losing the plot at him and achieving nothing. In the end I had to separate them for a few months - that's all it took for DS to mature that bit more and now he doesn't do it. I also moved all the dining chairs into a different room because he kept using them to climb on the table, and the clothes airer lives on the landing where he can't get it. I have a stairgate in the living room doorway and he doesn't go anywhere else unsupervised. Anything I might need to keep away from him goes on a high shelf. It might sound like a lot of upheaval, but I find it easier. And then you can save the discipline for the really important stuff, which increases its impact and makes the rest of your relationship more enjoyable!

Try entertaining her and distracting her with stimulating things to exercise her brain and use up her energy, rather than shouting louder and louder. If she has energy she does not know how to expend, she will expend it responding to you shouting. some children do not sit like dolls and no amount of shouting is in any way going to affect that.

i don't think it matters whether it is normal or not - unless you are hoping to be able to diagnose something which will enable you to tranquilise her with medication? but that seems a bit weird.