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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it might be useful to know how many men and women we have in this country?

104 replies

busyboysmum · 08/10/2017 10:35

The UK is to become one of the first countries in the world not to require its citizens to let officialdom know what sex they are.

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) is proposing to make the sex question in the next census voluntary, after protests that it discriminates against transgender and other non-binary people.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-sex-please-this-is-the-census-sswntgs5z?shareToken=77358bbde829f11d5748d07af324243a

AIBU to think that we need to know how many men and women there are in society - how on earth can we plan for health services like maternity services, cancers such as prostrate and cervical cancers etc if there isn't even a base line figure for the number of men and women in the country?

OP posts:
MargaretTwatyer · 08/10/2017 11:43

Well death records and immigration/tax records will also let them know how many people are in the country, so its a fairly simple matter to work out how many biological males/females are in the country based on the birth,death & immigration records.

People are dying different sexes from those of their birth. Immigration records are notoriously inaccurate and half the point of the census is that it does not feed into other records and people's answers can't be used against them (e.g. for immigration purposes) so it gives a more accurate picture as it picks up those who are 'under the radar' to some extent. It also gives a better picture of emigration of which few records are kept.

The whole point of it is that it filters out inaccuracies in those processes.

If they actually wanted to get accurate, useful information they would ask people to record 'the gender they were assigned at birth' and their current gender. But obviously that would make a few snowflakes cry about dead naming so who cares about providing accurate, useful information for the provision of well functioning public services when someone's feelz might get hurt?

MargaretTwatyer · 08/10/2017 11:44

"Plus now people are dying a different sex from how they are born" No they're not

Apols stealth, you are correct, I should have said gender.

StealthPolarBear · 08/10/2017 11:45

People are dying different sexes from those of their birth. "
No they aren't. Where will this madness end. I want to take my children and get away from it all.

StealthPolarBear · 08/10/2017 11:45

Oh sorry was that you both times. Phew :)

BeyondNoone · 08/10/2017 11:45

Penny, when someone legally changes their gender, their previous NHS records are locked and they (for all administrative intents and purposes. Not literally. Obv) are the sex they have transistioned to. So according to nhs records they will add to the % of women who don’t get ovarian (eg) cancer, and according to death records they will bring down the average age at which a woman dies.

Greypaw · 08/10/2017 11:46

I suppose one has to presume that the people sorting this stuff out have thought about this point and decided they can get the information elsewhere. That, in fact, the information they get elsewhere might be more reliable, given that people might fill in census information sometimes giving their gender rather than their sex and therefore making the statistics on biological sex unreliable.

StealthPolarBear · 08/10/2017 11:46

Yes. It's all a huge fucking mess. Women are going to start dying of prostate and testicular cancer too.

ThePeanutGallery · 08/10/2017 11:47

The whole point of it is that it filters out inaccuracies in those processes.

We're talking about a census form right? It's not filled out in front of witnesses, which means that anyone can fill out whatever answer they want, regardless.

Wasn't there a bunch of people filling out Jedi as their religion in the 2011 census?

They're kind of a joke, and really not reliable for any kind of information.

SmileEachDay · 08/10/2017 11:47

People are dying different sexes from those of their birth

No, they really aren't.

ThePeanutGallery · 08/10/2017 11:48

*irregardless, not regardless.

BeyondNoone · 08/10/2017 11:50

Eg
Male baby is born (“amab” in newspeak, which funnily autocorrects to “a man”)
Male person transitions legally to female. They’re not female, that isn’t actually possible, but legally they are.
Male NHS records are locked and new female records exist.
“Female” dies of myocardial infarction. With Male symptoms. Bringing the % amount of females with female presentation down.
Death certificate says “female” as male person no longer legally exists.

AppalachianWalzing · 08/10/2017 11:57

There actually are no immigration records that would make it clear the number of men and women in the country.

I have moved to, and from, the UK twice in the last decade. There was nobody who recorded that fact- I stopped paying taxes and didn't start claiming jobseekers, but I could equally have decided to stay at home. EU citizens, British citizens and Irish citizens (separate to their status as EU citizens) have total freedom of movement at the moment, so the census really is the only way to get a clear picture of how many people are in the country.

Anlaf · 08/10/2017 11:58

As pointed out, the government has other data sets which will capture the numbers with sufficient granularity for planning purposes

As per above, the ONS propose to review the sex question in their other surveys given its "unacceptability". As I posted on the other thread in FWR, you cannot use medical records, as GPs are forbidden from discussing/disclosing pre-transition status.

If the ONS do not collect this data then I would be astonished if it remains mandatory in any other setting.

ThePeanutGallery · 08/10/2017 11:59

Male baby is born (“amab” in newspeak, which funnily autocorrects to “a man”)
Male person transitions legally to female. They’re not female, that isn’t actually possible, but legally they are.
Male NHS records are locked and new female records exist.
“Female” dies of myocardial infarction. With Male symptoms. Bringing the % amount of females with female presentation down.
Death certificate says “female” as male person no longer legally exists.

Census would also say female, as the person would undoubtedly put female. So there's not really a point there....

SmileEachDay · 08/10/2017 12:00

This is the text of the article -
*The Office for National Statistics (ONS) is proposing to make the sex question in the next census voluntary, after protests that it discriminates against transgender and other non-binary people.

The change will leave Britain without an accurate figure for the number of men and women living in the country.

Four million people declined to answer the only voluntary question in the last census: “What is your religion?”

The proposal was greeted with horror last night by some feminists, who see it as part of a growing trend to remove all mention of the biological female sex.

Germaine Greer, the writer and academic, said biological women were “losing out everywhere”.

She added: “I’m sick and tired of this. We keep arguing that women have won everything they need to win. They haven’t even won the right to exist.”

The survey takes place every 10 years, with the next due in 2021.

Stephanie Davies-Arai, a feminist activist, said: “Women’s biological sex is being erased and that terrifies me. Once you stop gathering information, that skews everything for women.”

In a report slipped out last month, the ONS said the existing census question, which requires respondents to choose whether they are male or female, was “considered to be irrelevant, unacceptable and intrusive, particularly to trans participants, due to asking about sex rather than gender”.

Another option — to add a third choice of “other” — was rejected as “irrelevant and intrusive”, with the “other” category “thought to homogenise trans people and differentiate them from the rest of society”.

The final option, a two-step design with separate sex and gender identity questions, was again rejected.

The report instead recommended that the existing census question “should not be mandatory, for the benefit of particularly intersex and non-binary people who cannot choose male or female as a reflection of their current sex or gender”.

It also said that any other questions on sex or gender should be voluntary.

It is a criminal offence not to complete the census, or to give false information, with more than 100 people convicted in 2011."*

How is ok for the OFFICE OF NATIONAL STATISTICS to enter into this dancing around about what sex people are?

SmileEachDay · 08/10/2017 12:00

bold fail

Blush
ThePeanutGallery · 08/10/2017 12:01

so the census really is the only way to get a clear picture of how many people are in the country.

It still will. Except for all those illegal immigrants who aren't filling out the census.....

scaevola · 08/10/2017 12:02

Birth registrations and longterm visas, permits and naturalisation wouid (probably) be enough.

Especially post-Brexit, when there will no longer be unnumbered and uncategorised numbers of EU citizens whose arrivals and departures are unrecorded.

Rumandraisin1 · 08/10/2017 12:04

I suppose one has to presume that the people sorting this stuff out have thought about this point and decided they can get the information elsewhere.

If there is one thing I have learnt on transgender politics, it is that the powers that be really haven't thought it through (or just don't give a toss). I used to support trans rights (and still believe that trans people should be protected from unfair treatment, violence etc) and was kind of dismissive of some of the risks being highlighted, thinking that provisions would be put in place to stop this happening. This really isn't the case and the safety, well-being and rights of women and girls is at risk as a result.

I think this article from The Times demonstrates how little our politicians have thought this through:

Maria Miller gathers up her handbag and makes to leave: “I don’t think I’m happy about this. I think I’ve finished . . . I didn’t realise this was such a stitch-up.” I’ve been questioning Ms Miller about a report on transgender rights she produced last year as chairwoman of the women and equalities committee. The government has just announced that it will go to further consultation this autumn.

Many of its recommendations, to redress hate crime against transgender people, to improve access to NHS services and stop discrimination in employment (as seen in President Trump’s cruel, summary banning of up to 6,600 transgender US military personnel), are widely supported. But one proposal that seeks to change the very definition of “man” and “woman” has far-reaching implications.

Justine Greening, the equalities minister, announced her support this week for changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, echoing calls by Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader. At present a person who wishes to change gender legally must be 18, demonstrate they have lived in their chosen gender for two years, have a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” (a mental disorder whereby a person feels they don’t feel they belong in their biological sex) and be questioned by an expert panel.

The heart of the controversy is the view, espoused by Ms Miller’s report, that switching gender should instead merely be a matter of “self-definition”. A man need only “declare” that he is a woman. Your gender is what you feel it to be: there would be no requirement even to take female hormones or have surgery — about 70 per cent of trans women still have intact male genitals — or even “present” as a woman to be legally female. (Some older trans people are troubled by this, believing that it trivialises and delegitimises their struggles to live in their non-birth gender.)

Furthermore, if the law changes, “gender identity” is likely to become a protected characteristic under equalities legislation: ie if you deny a person is a woman or a man when they claim to be, you are guilty of discrimination or hate crime.

When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology.

Many see potential loopholes and conflicts of rights that put women at risk, giving men access to rare female-only spaces such as single-sex wards, changing rooms and domestic violence refuges, designed to keep them safe and private. It is these concerns I put to Ms Miller in her Basingstoke constituency.

Take this scenario: a man enters a female communal changing area, removes his clothes while women get undressed. Now they have a right to ask him to leave. Under gender self-definition, if he said “I identify as a woman” he would be entitled to stay. This, I stress, is unlikely to be a trans woman — many who use women’s changing rooms every day with discretion and no fuss — but could be a sexual predator exploiting the loophole. (There have been a growing number of cases in the US, including a man in Seattle using women’s pool facilities claiming “the law has changed, I have a right to be here”.) Does Ms Miller not see why women fear a conflict of rights?

“But 50 years ago, maybe ten years ago, people felt very uncomfortable about gay people showing their relationships in public but life has moved on.” This isn’t a question of feelings, however, but of physical safety and privacy which, as the author of another report on sexual abuse, she surely understands?

I show her a photograph of a bearded, male-born American called Danielle Muscato who dresses in men’s suits and ties, has made no attempt to transition but nonetheless “identifies as female” and insists on living in a women’s homeless shelter. On International Women’s Day he tweeted: “Some women have penises. If you’re bothered by this, you can suck my dick.”Alex Drummond is a lush-bearded British psychotherapist who claims to be a woman, without any transition, who is “expanding the bandwidth of gender.”

These people should be free from all abuse and discrimination, but do they have the right to women’s spaces? “There will be individuals who will try to use this as an abuse of the system but you cannot disregard the rights of 600,000 people in this country,” Ms Miller says, referring to an estimate of people who express unhappiness with their birth gender. But can you ignore the rights of 30 million women? “No. And nobody’s suggesting that that’s the case.”

So do you think that women and girls should have a right to object to male-bodied individuals undressing among them. “How an individual presents themselves is really up to them,” she says. “Nobody is saying this is an easy set of decisions. I think that is a legitimate part of the consultation.”

Ms Miller says that self-definition is misunderstood “as some amateurish way of trying to recognise somebody’s change. In our report we made it very clear that this would not simply be somebody being able to pull a form off the internet, sign it and call themselves a woman because that would be open to abuse.” Her committee envisaged each person receiving “psychological support . . . to make sure that they’re making the right decision for them” instead of “this quasi-medicalised panel which has brought great distress to transgender people”. She would not confirm that the new self-definition process would ever query an application.

How does she think this rule will effect the operation of women’s domestic violence refuges, several of which submitted concerns to her inquiry that clients would be distressed having fled brutal men if male-bodied individuals were granted access. In Toronto, Christopher Hambrook claimed to be a trans woman to access a refuge then raped residents. “These spaces carry out a risk assessment before individuals are allowed to use them and those that pose a risk to safety are not necessarily one gender.” But 90 per cent of violent crime and 98 per cent of sexual crime is committed by men. Trans women, such as Davina Ayrton, who raped a 15-year-old girl, have been convicted of offences seldom committed by natal females. Would self-identification mean these crimes would be registered as committed by women, skewing the figures? “It should be registered in the gender of the person when they committed the crime.” This would mean that if Katie Brannen, charged with twice raping a man in South Shields, is convicted that crime would be recorded on female statistics even though legally women cannot commit rape.

Sport is another problematic area: self-identification could destroy women’s competitions, allowing former-men with greater musculature and testosterone to dominate. In New Zealand a weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard, has broken national records; in Canada the mountain biker Michelle Dumaresq dominated for years. “Those are already issues that professional bodies have to deal with. And again that is something which needs to be looked at in significant detail.”

I ask her about school sports. In Connecticut Andraya Yearwood, a male-bodied, moustachioed 15-year-old trans girl, has won state championships although she would have finished last in the boys’ competition. Does Ms Miller think this fair to the girl athletes? “Well, I think it’s a bit of a difficult one to answer because boys are not going through gender reassignment when they’re at school.” But what would you say to the girls who lost? “It’s a very difficult one to answer . . .”

She adds: “What I think we’re touching on here is that trans issues are something that still strike a nerve in British society.” Compiling her report she was moved by young trans folk “just trying to get on with their lives in a quiet manner . . . The idea of individuals being not of one gender or another is not a new thing.”

Yet this very idea of “non-binary” or “gender fluidity” is challenged by feminists. Because it assumes that being female is a narrow category: involving pink, make-up, girlie pursuits as opposed to the male world of noise, fun and muddy sports. Isn’t the epidemic of girls wanting to transition — they make up 1,000 out of the Tavistock clinic’s 1,400 referrals — a rebellion against society’s rigid gender strictures rather than a sign that they were “born in the wrong body” and require hormones? This is around the point at which Ms Miller threatens to leave. She relents and we talk a little longer. Although Ms Miller as equalities minister guided gay marriage through parliament, she is at heart a home counties conservative who in 2007 voted against regulations to stop discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. She voted to lower the abortion limit to 20 weeks and for a Nadine Dorries amendment to stop abortion providers such as Marie Stopes giving counselling.

She looks alarmed when I ask about these stances and instead seizes on the government’s decision — pushed by Labour’s Stella Creasy — to fund NHS abortions of women in Northern Ireland. “It is a sticking plaster for the short term. There should be equal rights for women across the UK.” But wouldn’t this mean overriding the devolved assembly, whose major party the DUP is in coalition with the Tories? “I think this should be seen as a human rights issue and I’m glad it is in front of the Supreme Court.”

What does she say to those who believe the government’s sudden announcement of trans reform is to counter bad publicity garnered by allying with the anti-gay marriage DUP or to win young votes. “Absolutely ludicrous!” she cries.

She says that her experience as a woman and a mother who has faced discrimination and sexism has made her receptive to the rights of minority groups such as trans people and their families. She puts the concerns of feminists about material changes to their rights and safety into the same category as religious objections, like those of the Christian bakers who refused to make a cake for a gay couple. “There are always jagged edges to the law which create tensions, and we are going into new territory here.”

BeyondNoone · 08/10/2017 12:06

If I were transgender (I’m not, so I hope someone who is reads and can share their opinion), I would imagine that I would want that to receive appropriate recognition. If there is indeed an increase in people not agreeing with their “assigned birth” sex, the census would be a perfect chance to show this, when a larger % give their “birth” sex and also say that they are now trans. I’d probably include options like “transwoman - no GRC, transwoman - with GRC”, as well as “woman” (I’d be curious how many didn’t count themselves as “trans” despite not matching “birth” sex, but that’s probably me just being nosy!) and the nonsense NB etc options. If I was making it I’d probably include an option for gender critical-ness too Grin

Increased % of trans would lead to increased recognition, support and funding. Isn’t that what the activists claim they want?

SmileEachDay · 08/10/2017 12:06

It's not just about the census though is it?

It's about a fast slide towards 'sex' not being a protected characteristic - or even a characteristic at all.

We will not be able to protect women and their rights if we are no longer able to define them as being distinct from men.

AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 08/10/2017 12:08

More fucking nonsense from the Trans lunacy campaign. Btw, mothers can't claim ownership of Mother's Day anymore either

4thwavenow.com/2017/05/14/mtof-tells-trans-kids-to-dump-moms-on-mothers-day-and-join-the-glitter-queer-family-of-adult-trans-activists/comment-page-1/#comment-21973

MargaretTwatyer · 08/10/2017 12:10

t still will. Except for all those illegal immigrants who aren't filling out the census.....

Actually some do precisely because it is probably the only public record which will never affect their immigration status.

We know it's not quite accurate because sewage records tell us there are still more people who don't fill it in. But it is the closest tool to accuracy we have, and we shouldn't willingly further compromise it's accuracy.

MaidofHonour · 08/10/2017 12:10

Deliberate blindness is not sensible for a state.

What is the point?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/10/2017 12:11

Why just sex? Why not other crucial demographic questions?

The point of the census is that it can link sex to other important issues / questions the census addresses. Where women and men differ in particular ways or aspects this is vital knowledge.

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