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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to ask opinions on this IVF court case?

279 replies

iogo · 06/10/2017 12:46

I've had a quick look but can't see another thread, apologies if there is one.

I've just read this story on the BBC about a man losing his court case for damages against an IVF clinic where his ex wife forged his signature to undergo a second round of IVF after they'd split, resulting in a daughter.

I feel so desperately sorry for that child and the man involved. I can't quite wrap my head around what his ex wife did. I can understand the court not forcing the clinic to pay damages such as school fees, future wedding etc. I can understand the father not wanting to pay for the upkeep of the child and I'm not sure it's fair to make him. But then how unfair would it be to pay maintenance and school fees for one child but not the full sibling (I mention school fees as it's mentioned in the article so I'm presuming the older sibling goes to private school and the ex wife was in a position to be able to afford priveate IVF as the NHS is not mentioned)

BBC link www.bbc.com/news/health-41525215

OP posts:

differentnameforthis · 07/10/2017 11:35

But my heart is with the little girl who will live with the fact that her father doesn't want her I realise that now, I'd hadn't seen that when I wrote that part, so I stand corrected. Yet, if he is anything like my mother, he may not hide it as well as he thinks.

If the judgement is anything to do by, where he says It’s very difficult to comprehend the situation. You have a beautiful girl who, when she’s in our midst, all she does is remind us of pain. She’s a beautiful girl who doesn’t feel like she’s part of our family. She feels like an alien in our home despite the fact that she’s a beautiful girl. It’s an impossible situation. It torments my wife who shows nothing but kindness and generosity towards her, but it’s deeply painful to her which is deeply painful to me. I can’t, at times, bring myself to even hug her, but at the same time it makes me feel terribly guilty. How can I not want to hug a beautiful young girl? To describe such an event, it’s just impossible, it’s impossible to reconcile this conflicting situation it may be that he isn't able to hide his true feelings from this little girl for long.

Oldie2017 · 07/10/2017 11:36

The father sued the clinic not the mother because the clinic has money so this is about money.
If it should be about fairness and moral right the mother should work full time to support the children and the children live as much with the father as he chooses to make up whilst the mother pays child support.

SoPassRemarkable · 07/10/2017 11:36

I'm a bit in the fence about this.

I do think (with my head) that the mother shouldn't have done it, nobody should do such a thing behind someone's back.

With my heart I think he was obviously ok about having the child when the sperm left his body but changed his mind later on. In a normal pregnancy situation he wouldn't get a say. Tough. I'd also be interested in the background of what happened....did he leave his wife for another woman? I see he's remarried. If he's cheated on his first wife during ivf and left her, I assume she has fertility issues/maybe is older than part of me thinks serves him right.

When they split up he knew his sperm was in an ivf clinic somewhere....maybe he should have contacted them and to,d them to bin it.

differentnameforthis · 07/10/2017 11:39

In the above situation, even if I didn't want another child, I'd absolutely step up and be a parent to the child. I could never let them be treated differently to their sibling or let them be splashed all over the media knowing I didn't want them. Wouldn't you all do the same? Not goading, genuinely interested.

It's not always that easy though. My mum became pregnant with me and didn't want me. She wanted to terminate. However, my father wanted me, and he persuaded her, with the help of her brothers (who were my fathers close friends) to continue the pregnancy, telling her that she would love me once I was born, and it was the tiredness talking (she already had 2 under 3). So she had me. (During the pregnancy she did try to induce a miscarriage though)

Dad left when I was 5. And there began the hardest time of my life, where slowly but surely, the way she felt about me shone through in everything she did. She resented him for leaving me with her, and it was very obvious for a further 13yrs til I left home! She couldn't hide it. I saw how she treated my siblings differently. I saw how she loved them, but seemingly couldn't love me, despite my being such a good girl who only wanted her love & approval.

Some could probably do it (hide how they felt). She maybe could have done it, I don't know. Perhaps she thought she was doing it. But she didn't/wasn't/couldn't. And it caused so many issues for me. We haven't spoken for almost 30yrs.

SoPassRemarkable · 07/10/2017 11:41

Sorry, see it was an embryo rather than a container of sperm, think I must have read a misleading headline earlier. That's kind of worse for the woman, I would be gutted if I had a frozen embryo I wasn't allowed to have implanted. I would feel that that baby was already created.

Maybe men need to sign something right at the beginning of ivf saying they can't change their mind once an embryo has been created? I don't know, it's an ethical minefield.

MargaretTwatyer · 07/10/2017 11:47

He didn't cheat he didn't leave her for another woman. The mother left him.

After reading the interview this morning I feel even more strongly he needs to know. He can't help those feelings, the daughter needs to know why things may be difficult between them and that her mother caused it.

Reading the emails from the mother who appears to be a head case and about her obstructing access plus of course the deceit about conception you just know otherwise she'd be filling the kids head with 'it's just because Daddy is so horrible'

differentnameforthis · 07/10/2017 11:49

SoPassRemarkable well done for trying to place the blame at the man's feet!

1] she waited 5mth to tell him that she was pregnant
2] they already had one child, he consented to all parts of the IVF process
3] just because he willingly let them freeze embryos, doesn't mean that his consent is then ongoing
4] the onus should not have to be on him to destroy the embryos. The onus should be on her not to have fraudulently signed the papers giving consent
5] there is no evidence that he cheated on her
6] even if he did cheat on her, that doesn't make it OK to use a child as punishment
7] how would it EVER be OK to use a child to 'serve him right' in any instance?

prh47bridge · 07/10/2017 11:50

she's six years old and he said in court, recently, that she was a burden with no benefit to offset that burden

There is nothing in the judgement to indicate that he said any such thing, nor can I find any report that suggests he said this. His lawyer may have said it, although I can't find any evidence for that either. Do not confuse arguments put by his lawyer regarding the financial burden of raising a child (which is what this case was about) with his own opinions.

MargaretTwatyer · 07/10/2017 11:50

Maybe men need to sign something right at the beginning of ivf saying they can't change their mind once an embryo has been created? I don't know, it's an ethical minefield

That would frequently mean though that men wouldn't do IVF at all and it would be utterly unethical and lead to dreadful situations for children.

MargaretTwatyer · 07/10/2017 11:53

different that is such a sad story.

differentnameforthis · 07/10/2017 11:53

Maybe men need to sign something right at the beginning of ivf saying they can't change their mind once an embryo has been created? Therefore giving up any rights over how many kids they are forced to provide for?

Should women sign something at the beginning of marriage saying they can't use contraception?

thegreylady · 07/10/2017 11:54

I'm a bit stupid maybe...the embryo was 50% ovum and 50% sperm and the woman therefore had as much right as the man to decide its fate. Presumably both parties agreed on the IVF in the first instance and had they stayed together it would have been implanted in the woman.
I have a lot of sympathy for a woman with fertility problems not wanting her embryos to be incinerated.

differentnameforthis · 07/10/2017 11:55

MargaretTwatyer Thank you for the flowers. I do wholeheartedly hope this isn't the reality for this little girl. But the truth is, that we can never know.

existentialmoment · 07/10/2017 11:56

There is nothing in the judgement to indicate that he said any such thing, nor can I find any report that suggests he said this

It is a direct quote from the proceedings, said by the fathers barrister on his behalf. And he said far worse in the interview he gave.

differentnameforthis · 07/10/2017 11:57

thegreylady But they didn't stay together, that is the important factor here. You cannot say what she did was OK as they may have implanted if they had still been together.

PurpleDaisies · 07/10/2017 12:03

Hospitals can be sued when children are damaged through negligent treatment. The clinic was negligent here in not having robust consent procedures here. That's not in any way a judgement on the value of the girl's life.

The mother's behaviour is utterly reprehensible.

AJPTaylor · 07/10/2017 12:05

i dont think its fair to say when when the sperm left his body he was consenting. are you agreeing to having 6 or 9 kids if thats how many embryos are frozen? clearly not.
she behaved outrageously. the clinic follwed guidelines at the time re written consent. its probably this case which means quite rightly that both parents have to give consent in person.
whatever went on, i dont blame him for the legal action. its seems a reasonable case to me. having heard him on radio 4 its clear that he is trying to reconcile the difficult situation he and the child is in. the mother should be ashamed of herself

existentialmoment · 07/10/2017 12:05

The clinic was negligent here in not having robust consent procedures here

they have been found not to be negligent in a court of law. They followed all industry regulations.

PurpleDaisies · 07/10/2017 12:11

they have been found not to be negligent in a court of law. They followed all industry regulations.

Apologies, I wrote a longer post which got lost when my connection dropped and when I retyped I meant to say the father wasn't out of order for suing the clinic believing they were negligent in their lack of robust consent procedures.

Liadain · 07/10/2017 12:33

Maybe men need to sign something right at the beginning of ivf saying they can't change their mind once an embryo has been created? I don't know, it's an ethical minefield.

Jesus Christ, no. How about the woman respects his wishes to not be a father again? Much more ethical solution.

With ivf you can't compare it to a pregnancy in this respect imo, they weren't together and having sex at the time of implantation. It's more akin to the woman stealing some of his sperm and inseminating herself with it.

prh47bridge · 07/10/2017 12:40

It is a direct quote from the proceedings, said by the fathers barrister on his behalf. And he said far worse in the interview he gave.

Link?

existentialmoment · 07/10/2017 12:43

Did you read the quote from the judgement above? he called her an alien in our family, not part of out family, I can't bring myself to hug her, my wife finds it too painful to have her in our home......

prh47bridge · 07/10/2017 13:17

I have read the full judgement, including the passage you have just twisted. At no point does he or his lawyer refer to her as a burden with no benefit to offset that burden as you claim. And I can find no reference, either in the judgement or elsewhere, to the alleged interview where, according to you, he said much worse.

Under questioning from the judge he does, after a long hesitation (13 seconds according to the judge), say that she "feels like an alien in our home" and that she "doesn't feel like she's part of our family", which is not the same as saying she is an alien and not part of the family. He said that he can't "at times, bring myself to even hug her" and that he feels terribly guilty when this happens. That is very different from your implication that he can never bring himself to hug her. He did not say his wife finds it too painful to have her in their home. He said, " It torments my wife who shows nothing but kindness and generosity towards her, but it’s deeply painful to her which is deeply painful to me".

He also stated clearly that he and his wife with treat her the same as their other children and that, whatever the outcome of the case and notwithstanding the mother's desire that he has nothing to do with his daughter, he and his wife will do the right thing for her.

I should also note that, from reading the judgement in full, it is clear that he has had to fight the mother in order to get contact with his daughter. Contact is not being forced on him. It is something he wanted and went through the courts to get. That is very different from the implication you are trying to draw.

prh47bridge · 07/10/2017 13:19

By the way, the "it torments my wife" passage was referring to what he describes as an "impossible situation". He could at this point be referring to having his daughter in their home but it is not clear that he is doing so. He could be referring to the entire situation surrounding his daughter.

existentialmoment · 07/10/2017 13:21

He also stated clearly that he and his wife with treat her the same as their other children

He may say that, but does he have to make himself hug his other children? Does he say they feel like aliens and not part of his family?

I don't need to draw any implications, its right there and plain to see. Which his daughter will, in time.

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