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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to ask opinions on this IVF court case?

279 replies

iogo · 06/10/2017 12:46

I've had a quick look but can't see another thread, apologies if there is one.

I've just read this story on the BBC about a man losing his court case for damages against an IVF clinic where his ex wife forged his signature to undergo a second round of IVF after they'd split, resulting in a daughter.

I feel so desperately sorry for that child and the man involved. I can't quite wrap my head around what his ex wife did. I can understand the court not forcing the clinic to pay damages such as school fees, future wedding etc. I can understand the father not wanting to pay for the upkeep of the child and I'm not sure it's fair to make him. But then how unfair would it be to pay maintenance and school fees for one child but not the full sibling (I mention school fees as it's mentioned in the article so I'm presuming the older sibling goes to private school and the ex wife was in a position to be able to afford priveate IVF as the NHS is not mentioned)

BBC link www.bbc.com/news/health-41525215

OP posts:
Slarti · 07/10/2017 13:23

prh: To set it out clearly, person A (male) and person B (female) give their genetic material and Person C gives birth.

In this context it is not given, it is taken or used without consent. Neither the biological mother or father have given consent for the child to be created in this example, so their circumstances are materially equal. That the law does not treat them equally, and would only consider one of them liable for financial contributions, is the inequity that I am pointing out. Shouldn't the law treat both sexes the same in this context (re non consent)?

Slarti · 07/10/2017 13:26

existential: "There is also the fact that the offences you might charge her for would not attract a custodial sentence."

But that was not the reason you gave. Even if a custodial sentence was appropriate you appear to consider her status as a parent to be enough to avoid jail.

AccrualIntentions · 07/10/2017 13:28

Is there any evidence that he isn't currently supporting his child? What the ex wife did was despicable.

MargaretTwatyer · 07/10/2017 13:29

they have been found not to be negligent in a court of law. They followed all industry regulations.

This is not true. The judgement specifically says that the consent form for embryo replacement did not have the required counter signature on behalf of the centre which implies it was not checked.

He lost the judgement but on different grounds and the judge heavily criticised the clinic.

existentialmoment · 07/10/2017 13:29

But that was not the reason you gave. Even if a custodial sentence was appropriate you appear to consider her status as a parent to be enough to avoid jail

Hence why I said ALSO. Denotes another reason in addition to the first already given.

existentialmoment · 07/10/2017 13:29

And no, I don't.

MargaretTwatyer · 07/10/2017 13:31

He may say that, but does he have to make himself hug his other children? Does he say they feel like aliens and not part of his family?

I don't need to draw any implications, its right there and plain to see. Which his daughter will, in time.

He can't help feeling like that and nor can his wife. It's the mothers fault the daughter has to face that situation not his.

prh47bridge · 07/10/2017 13:58

existentialmoment - So I conclude that you cannot substantiate your alleged quote from the proceedings or the alleged interview. You are drawing inferences from the judgement.

He does not say he always has to make himself hug her, just that there are times when he can't do so. He nonetheless says he loves his daughter. The judge, who heard all the evidence, appears to be of the view that the father loves his daughter even though he did not want to have another child with his daughter's mother and is doing his best to do the right thing in difficult circumstances.

Slarti - Considering the situation where C uses A and B's genetic material without consent, C is the mother of the child. B is not. Under the HEFA A is not the father of the child unless he is C's husband or he consents to be the father and C consents to him being the father. In the case being discussed on this thread, ARB does not appear to have any legal liability to maintain his daughter as he did not consent but he is choosing to pay maintenance anyway.

BarbarianMum · 07/10/2017 16:12

Ive been thinking about this a lot today. I think if an ex of mine somehow created a child using my egg without my consent I would feel well, violated really. I would hope i could get over that and not hold it against the child but I'm actually not sure I could. I worry that all the anger I felt against my ex would come out wherever I looked at it.

Im pretty sure if this guy had done this - forged the papers, maybe got his new wife to carry the embryo and then texted his ex to let her know, none of us would be criticising her very mixed feelings about it all.

Rainbunny · 07/10/2017 16:24

I feel for the child but I don't blame the father for suing the clinic. I can understand the clinic assuming he had signed the papers given that they had had previous successful fertility treatment at the clinic but it's such an important process - attempting to bring a life into the world, that I think it isn't unreasonable to require a potential father to give permission in person, not just rely on a signed (forged) document . The mother should be in jail.

Fresh8008 · 07/10/2017 16:29

I think the mother should be in jail as well. Just gives me the creeps how sick she is.

2014newme · 07/10/2017 16:50

People proposing to jail the mum, what do you suggest then happens to the kids?

existentialmoment · 07/10/2017 17:14

In the case being discussed on this thread, ARB does not appear to have any legal liability to maintain his daughter as he did not consent but he is choosing to pay maintenance anyway

He does have a legal liability to maintain his daughter. That is the entire point, that is why he sued the clinic.
One wonders how you can have such strong opinions without having understood the most basic facts of the case.

NotPeaked · 07/10/2017 17:24

People proposing to jail the mum, what do you suggest then happens to the kids?

The same thing as what happens to the kids of other people who go to jail, they either stay with their Dad or an other family member or failing that then care.

You do realize that a lot of people in prison have kids? 🤷🏻‍♀️

I don't know if prison is the right or wrong punishment for this woman but if it were then it would be ironic if it was the child that ended up protecting her from being imprisoned. 🤔

AtHomeDadGlos · 07/10/2017 19:18

Clinics have now changed their proceedures I think - requiring documents to be signed in person or via Skype etc.

If this were bank fraud, and she had forged his signature and took all the savings she’d be in prison.

I think this is even worse.

She’s forged his signature to bring an unwanted child into the world - affecting the child, her ex husband and her other child immeasurably. She’s also imposed an 18 year financial straight jacket on her XH. It’s incredibly controlling.

Surprised to see so many having a pop at the man and defending the woman when there are numeral threads where posters lay into men for dictating what their wife wears etc (which is obviously outrageous). My point is that is small fry compared to this controlling deception.

MaisyPops · 07/10/2017 19:36

The ex is a vile individual who selfishly put her own needs above any sense of morality.

He is doing his best in a tough situation. The clinic were negligent and the ex has committed fraud.

TammySwansonTwo · 07/10/2017 19:58

I feel for him but also can understand her desperation.

IVF is an agonising process. She wants another baby, the embryos are already created, she likely can't have a child without him without going through IVF again. This is a serious issue as egg freezing is just not effective if they're not fertilised.

HeebieJeebies456 · 07/10/2017 20:36

Would you accept 'desperation' as a justifiable reason if a man forced a woman to become a mother or used one of her embryo's like this?

NeedsAsockamnesty · 07/10/2017 20:47

2014 I was referring to their first child who he requested she abort approximately 7months before they were born.

It’s in the court judgement

NeedsAsockamnesty · 07/10/2017 20:52

He attended one gynae appointment before they split. He didn't give full consent to conception because he didn't give full consent to replacing the embryos

twatyer

He did fully consent to the conception of the first child the one born in 2008 that is the child he asked her to abort.

Rainbunny · 07/10/2017 21:34

Tammy - I have been dealing with infertility for 7 years and have undergone several rounds of IVF amongst other treatments, all unsuccessful. As awful and soul destroying as this experience has been, nothing excuses fraudulently bringing a life into the world to satisfy a "need" to have a child without regard to the father forced into parenthood and a child who will have a father deeply conflicted about his feelings for her.

Oldie2017 · 07/10/2017 22:04

They are just quoting from his witness statement. I am not surprised by the decision as the law has always been as I said above that a child is a blessing (even if it is from sterlisation gone wrong). I do think the mother should have to pay and work full time to fund the school fees - in fact both mothers. They could have three full time wages here and share childcare for the 3 small children surely? That way you are all putting your all into the financial costs of these three children.

AutomaticSteeple · 08/10/2017 10:17

I really feel for this man. Disgusting behaviour from the woman, you cannot just take someone's genetic material without consent because you want a child.
In a case such as this I think he should be perfectly within his right to walk away if that's what he chooses. The mother can explain why that happened to the child when she's older.

Mumof56 · 08/10/2017 11:18

Clwark y the woman is menormally unstable and I'm a bit Hmm at the posters who defend her actions. I persume they also think that when a woman consents to sex, she consents to getting pregnant?

Floellabumbags · 08/10/2017 11:21

Poor kid. The parents need their heafs banged together.