to think it's parents, not children, who are the problem in public?

[WorkingBling]

No Children Spaces I read this article this morning. As a parent, I have strict rules about taking my children to places that seem appropriate and where other diners should expect to see children. But what frustrates me is when you read about a child whizzing around on its scooter, and the child is being blamed. That's the parents' fault, not the child.

Personally, I do think here are places children shouldn't go if possible because the level of behaviour expected is unrealistic for them. My children are generally well behaved, but they sometimes shout out. And they don't eat everything and they can only sit quietly drawing in a restaurant for less than an hour, so I certainly have no problem keeping them away from The Ivy and ensuring we stick to Pizza Express or similar. But surely the only way to teach them how to behave in public is to take them out in public?!

I think yes most of the time it is the parents fault but sometimes the parent can do everything and the child will not stop.

But that is when they should quietly leave.

However, I do think some places should be allowed to be child free. If that's what the business wants, then it's their right

I don't mind children in appropriate public spaces. Even if they're grizzly or upset I don't mind, children cry it's a fact of life.

I do mind adults who feel entitled to bring children to places or events where it's not appropriate for them. A couple of friends would always bring their baby to prove how hip they were and how Life Hasn't Changed

But surely the only way to teach them how to behave in public is to take them out in public?!

No. You learn first at your home. You train until they are able to sit fairly quietly at your own dinning table at your own house for a meal before taking him to The Ivy.

There are plenty of child friendly places in between your home and The Ivy.

I never had this issue from the age of around 4 mths she came out and learnt while out and about what was and wasn't acceptable, if she was cranky while out we left as it usually meant she was ill or whatever. We engaged her, played little quiet games with her (like silly conversation games like what is the worst kind of ice cream you can imagine or the best etc etc) the phone or ipad never made an appearance until she was 10 and even now she asks if she may get it out first and knows its only certain environments where its suitable (usually more down market). She has eaten 5 star and Michelin star, not that we can do that these days so we are back to Pizza but no issues.

It is a matter of training, setting boundaries and INTERACTING with said child not just ignoring them

I think there are two main issues, neither of which are children's fault.

There seems to be an increasing minority of parents etc who allow their children to do exactly what they want, without consideration of the world around them. I'm talking about things like scooters in cafes and coffee shops, letting toddlers stomp on wooden tables, expecting people to change seats on aeroplanes because of their children's wants (all of which I have seen).

At the same time, there are very few adult spaces left. Even most pubs are now "family-friendly". People on threads like these often say that if you don't want to hear children, go to an adult-only space - but where are these mythical spaces?

More consideration of others and more choice would go a long way for most people I think.

It is the parents fault.

But the only way to sensibly prevent it from happening in your establishment is to ban children.

Trying to ban "children with irresponsible parents" would lead to arguments every time, which your staff shouldn't have to deal with.

It's actually far more permissible to take your children out these days than it was when I was a kid growing up in the 80s. Back then, pubs with family rooms were few and far between, but these days every pub in the area does a children's menu.

Obviously- just because you can, doesn't mean every other punter in the pub thinks you should. We were in a beer garden last week that DP was afraid to smoke in as it was more akin to a toddler group than a pub.

I genuinely reckon it's the fallout from the smoking ban. Most pubs were clearly designated "child-free" spaces, and any grown-up wanting an adult space for an evening's drinking could take their pick of pubs in area where they could sit and drink without ankle-biters underfoot. But since the smoking ban (not to mention the disproportionate price of a pint compared to buying a four-pack in your local Tesco) many pubs have now been repurposed as family friendly eating establishment just to make up the business.

DH and I take our DDs to places like Pizza Hut or a pub with a wacky warehouse, where we’re not disturbing people who want some peace and quiet to eat their meal. That’s where I find the majority of families tend to go.

If I want some grown up time when someone is looking after my DDs, then we book a table at a nice Italian, at around 8pm. There may be a couple of families but I’ve never been bothered by children being disruptive.

When I’ve been out for your meal much later than that, I’ve found that the disruption comes from drunken adults rather than children.

I doubt mind a little noise from families, I don’t see the issue as long as the kids are not being too disruptive.

Pick Exactly

It is down to the parents to teach their children good manners and respect from birth.
My children were brought up to eat meals at the table and ask to be excused before leaving the table. They didn't have colouring things or tablets etc at the table either. It's not hard.
They were also brought up to say please and thank you.
They have taught their own children the same.
Children learn from adults, it is up to the adults to teach and lead by example.

Pubs have had to change to family friendly establishments because of the smoking ban. A lot have pushed hard at this, hence wacky warehouses and outdoor playgrounds. It’s been a case of adapting in order to survive.

Where we live there are a lot of kid friendly cafes which are aimed at the family market (with playrooms for the kids) we spend many a happy time in these. There are other places that we go for lunch but only have the one course. If our toddler starts playing up, I just pop him in his buggy and walk out; no one else needs to hear his screaming!

A lot of the time it is parents but sometimes however hard you work with your child, they can still be noisy or messy eaters etc (although no excuse for running around or scooter riding). Then some tolerance is needed because for some children this is always going to be a problem.

Mind, I'm sure I'm civilised enough for The Ivy, yet :o

Not sure

"But surely the only way to teach them how to behave in public is to take them out in public?!"

"No. You learn first at your home. You train until they are able to sit fairly quietly at your own dinning table at your own house for a meal before taking him to The Ivy"

I think both @WorkingBling and @misshelena are correct to some extent. Yes, you start teaching table manners and how to behave at home, but there does come a point at which you have to take off the training wheels and take the child out for a meal. Eating out is a different experience to eating at home, and a child who has learned good table manners at home may not behave as well when eating out.

It is a matter of practise, constant reinforcement and hard work from the parents. As @PickAChew says, there are plenty of options between eating at home, and The Ivy - and I see nothing wrong with using a more informal, family-style restaurant as somewhere to practice 'eating out manners'. If I am in a family style restaurant, I don't expect a hushed atmosphere with a gentle murmur of conversation and the tinkle of silver cutlery on fine porcelain - I expect a level of normal noise from the children there.

However, I do also expect the parents to make some effort to ensure a reasonable level of behaviour from the children - no running around between the tables, keep the noise to a sensible level etc. @WorkingBling is right that this is the parents' responsibility, and when children are running wild in a restaurant, that is not the child's fault.

No. You learn first at your home. You train until they are able to sit fairly quietly at your own dinning table at your own house for a meal before taking him to The Ivy.

Thanks but I'll pass. DS has ASD&ADHD. I doubt we'll ever be The Ivy acceptable no matter how many times I practiced at home with him.

But then I'm one of those parents that will and has taken him out of situations he's found too overwhelming.

I'm a single parent with a child with SENs. Sometimes I want my child free cuppa in peace too. So I've no objection against establishments wanting child free areas. There's always spoons for us. he has a penchant for the cheesy pasta.

Well I've just had a bus journey with a child of about 2 bouncing around in the seat behind me, free range, as his parents sat at the other end of the bus yelling 'say cat!' 'Say dog!' 'Say horse!'. Child was squeezing so quite happy but it was bumpy and I was worried he was going to topple over and land on me!

In a agreement with you.

I think it’s just incredibly difficult now to do anything without being surrounded by noisy children. Everything is so child friendly but places no longer offer grownups the chance to escape. DH and I went for a coffee at the weekend (rare event) and it was just impossible to have a conversation with kids running around and babies screaming. I met a friend for lunch a few weeks ago and the experience was similar. I just wonder why I bother.

I have no problem with kids in restaurants and cafes, we have always eaten out with our DCs. However, parents have to teach kids how to behave in these situations and how be mindful of others around them. It’s not ok to charge about and if a child is crying or kicking off take them out.

I'd agree that it's usually the parents. I'm more patient where it's clear that parents are making an effort particularly with babies/ toddlers.

Sometimes it's a case of knowing your audience and the situation. Some children are set up onto a loser by being put in inappropriate situations. We went out with DS1 a lot as a baby. He was a happy baby and in the early days slept a lot, then he was well motivated by food. Once he got mobile though, he entered public nuisance mode, and it came to be time for our gastronomic life to revolve around a supermarket cafe rather than a family pub until he had more patience. Now the DCs are older they can handle more lingering family meals out without us spending the minimal time there.

I've always been conscious over my DC's behaviour as the number of Friday evenings, we'd head out for what was supposed to be a nice night after a week of teaching other peoples' darlings and find the evening ruined by the charging around, trip hazard families and I'd have to resist the urge to get back into teacher mode.

That doesn't mean my children are angelic and there's been times when I've aborted mission because if my DCs are annoying me, they're probably annoying someone else.

I don't think children should be banned from restaurants. I do think parents should be responsible - taking toys to distract the children, not letting them run around, not scheduling it too late for bedtime etc. I was taken out for meals from the age of 4 months. I wasn't a perfect child (none are) but my parents never dreaded going out for meals specifically. They took my dolls, a book, toys when younger, would take me out to the beer garden/for awalk in between courses esp. if large group, etc. I do dislike screaming kids (not crying, that whingy shrieking) but then again that's parenting, not the child's fault. Parents should have control over their kids but how will they learn if they never go out?

I think it does come down (usually) to lazy /passive parenting - parents want to enjoy their meal/drinks/social and the kids tag along and are left to do as they please much to the annoyance of others.

People all have different levels of tolerance to children but I do think ‘No children’ venues are a great idea and I can see an increase in demand as more people are choosing not to have children themselves or have found it too late or whatever reason.

I have a child but one thing that really annoys me is paying to go to a restaurant and having to put up with ignorant parents who are allowing their child to scream continually. Yes all children cry but sometimes they need sleep/quiet time fresh air whatever and to keep them sitting in their high chair and fail to take action to stop them is wrong. The problem is restaurant owners are reluctant to step up and ask them to do the obvious for fear of online trolling afterwards, which is wholly unfair.

I think businesses have every right to excluded children from their premises and fully understand why the do it. People need to respect that and go elsewhere, they’re not that venues target market simple.