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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Famous artist didn't do his own painting?

318 replies

wowfudge · 26/09/2017 08:22

Just heard the new children's laureate being interviewed on the radio and she used to work for Damien Hurst. She said she mixed colours and had to paint lots of little circles. If that's the Hirst work I'm thinking of, does that mean he comes up with ideas but doesn't execute them himself? A bit like a couture designer I suppose. I always thought artists did their own art.

OP posts:
BackieJerkhart · 27/09/2017 14:36

You are placing a definition on 'artist' that others, including myself, wouldn't agree with.

Really? You disagree that someone who creates art is an artist?

Hoochy, I did not bait you, I responded to you me unpleasant posts. Others said the same, or similar to what you said without being dismissive of the opinion of the people they were addressing.

TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge · 27/09/2017 14:39

Put the pieces together doesn't make you the artist

noblegiraffe · 27/09/2017 14:40

students who had been paid to do a mockery-piece, and art critics who didn't spot the fake.

This reminds me of the professional wine-tasters who didn't spot that when they were given a white wine and a red wine, the red one was the white one with food colouring. I think wine-tasting probably suffers from the same sort of wankery as Art.

BitOutOfPractice · 27/09/2017 14:47

hooochy I thought you were just being supercillious until you asked backie "did you get rejected from art college at all?" Then I realised that you're actually being personal and nasty. What a totally horrible comment

No wonder so many people in the UK are disengaging from modern Art (art?) and struggle to understand it because they are made to feel stupid by people like you telling them that they are uneducated fools not entitled to an opinion!

BackieJerkhart · 27/09/2017 14:48

Put the pieces together doesn't make you the artist

I disagree. Particularly when putting the pieces together requires some degree of talent. If you paint a house you are a house painter, if you tell stories you are a story teller, if you climb a mountain you are a mountain climber. But if you do art you are not an artist?

MarthaArthur · 27/09/2017 14:55

See art is a concept not always the execution thats my point. If the assistants didnt want to do the job then they wouldnt be queueing round the block to do it. If they wanted to be artists in their own right then being an assistant and making contacts that way is a good idea for them to later sell their own concepts. Its not fine art which requires a large degree of personal skill.

TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge · 27/09/2017 14:55

So, does doing Paint By Numbers make you an artist?

hooochycoo · 27/09/2017 14:56

i haven't told anyone they are not entitled to an opinion! I've consistently said that personal likes and dislikes are completely valid and that art is very broad and there are many ways to be an artist.

I've been frustrated at people giving their uniformed opinions about what art is and isn't and who is and isn't an artist as fact! and I got fed up of Backie calling me a prick and telling me I was talking shite and made a joke.

BackieJerkhart · 27/09/2017 14:58

So, does doing Paint By Numbers make you an artist?

Of course. Why wouldn't it? It's a form of art. Or are we now discussing what is and isn't art?

TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge · 27/09/2017 15:00

Wow. I'm not sure what to say to that, aside from it doesn't make you an artist. Speechless!

MrsLupo · 27/09/2017 15:02

Wow, excellent thread, and excellent posts from thecat. I too am a Bourdieu (and Foucault) fan.

To go back to the OP briefly, it’s true, as hooochy and others have said, that the use of studio assistants is widespread and legitimate. But that isn’t to say that it’s non-controversial, particularly where the input of assistants is less mechanised than the Hirst examples suggest. In sculpture particularly, I would say, mould-makers bring a great deal of artistry to the work that a viewer of the finished piece, lay or ‘educated’ alike, would struggle to ascribe accurately. Ultimately, an assistant who has difficulty with this will probably set up their own studio.

The blanket response that ‘it’s been going on for centuries’ isn’t necessarily as relevant as it first sounds, as technological change in theory at least makes the need for a team of uncredited assistants less vital in the production of large-scale art than in the past.

Technological change also underpins a lot of the debates about the nature of fine art and the value placed upon different aspects of it that this thread has moved on to consider. For example, in a post-photography era, the value we place upon the ability to faithfully reproduce something visually with paint is reduced, and the purpose for which the skills of an artist are harnessed changes. Put simply, art has been less concerned in the last 120 years or so with the naturalistic depiction of ‘things’ and more with the expression of ideas and the provocation of thoughts, feelings and responses.

In many ways there are two sorts of art, bluntly, ‘pictures’ - and conceptual art or the art of ideas. (When I say ‘pictures’, I’m not excluding sculpture and other 3D art, so much as alluding to the idea of art that gives immediate aesthetic pleasure.) These two approaches to art are very much in tension with each other, giving rise to a tension between people who favour one over the other. The manner and quality of execution is more obviously important in the former, and gives rise, perhaps understandably, to a sense that authorship matters and needs to be stated upfront – although, as this thread clearly demonstrates, it often hasn’t been. The art of ideas, fairly obviously, foregrounds ideas, concepts and audience response to those, rather than aesthetic pleasure and technical skill in delivering that pleasure (which is not to say that all those things can’t coexist). In that context, authorship arguably is less the point. And which is why it doesn’t matter if your 5yo ‘could have done it’ – the point is that she would never have thought of it, or if she had happened to do it anyway, it wouldn’t have had the same meaning.

The art world is endlessly self-referential – everything that is created is created in the context of all that has gone before, which has the effect of rending all artistic meaning a glorious tunnel of opposing mirrors. This can be thrillingly freeing in its possibilities, but can also have the effect of excluding anyone who hasn’t to some extent internalised the discourse to date. In practice, this does invalidate the opinions of the uninformed but, and this is the important bit, only as far as concerns debate that takes place within the established discursive parameters. Opinions that fall outside that narrow frame of reference are still valid and indeed can open it up for the benefit of all. That said, imho, anyone who takes the time to discover more about any topic will in turn both get and give more from their participation in debate.

Hope this hasn’t been patronising. I work in contemporary art and am a bit over-excited about finding a thread on MN about it! Smile

BackieJerkhart · 27/09/2017 15:03

Grin ok triptrap, so you are deciding what is and isn't art in your opinion, which is fine. It isn't fact, it's opinion and we disagree.

BackieJerkhart · 27/09/2017 15:05

Let's use a piece that has been mentioned on this thread. Damien hirst circles piece. It has been held up as a piece of art on this thread. Do you agree with that trip trap? If not perhaps you could suggest a piece which you do consider art.

Maryz · 27/09/2017 15:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MarthaArthur · 27/09/2017 15:15

What does everyone define art as? Because art is a concept. Without a concept its not art simply put. If i spilled paint on a deck chair thats not art. But if i give it a concept i could then sell it as art work.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 27/09/2017 15:17

It must be a bit soul destroying being an artists assistant, like being a ghostwriter or a session musician. Is it very well paid? People like hurst and Emin are loaded. I would hope they are generous employers.

MarthaArthur · 27/09/2017 15:20

I worked for a little known artist but quiet well known in art circles and i got above minimum wage to sit in a cushy factory glueing textiles. Was really relaxed and fun.

TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge · 27/09/2017 15:20

The Spot Paintings are art, the galleries, collectors and critics state it is so therefore it is, whether personal opinion reflects that or not.

The point is that art is not just the execution. The biggest thing is the concept. The idea, the passion, the theory, the prep behind it, the emotion, the meaning, composition etc etc The thing itself could never exist without that, the talent behind it, that is major. To follow instruction to put that together isn't 'art' and therefore does not make you an 'artist' anymore than following instructions to build a shed makes you an architect.

A sculpture? Yes, it's skill and yes it's artistic. However, you are all jumping on it as if ALL art is produced by others, ALL of that requires remarkable talent (despite thinking your five year old could paint what's in a gallery) and ALL there is to art is the way it is assembled; not what is behind it.

Now have an important phonecall so lost train of thoughHmm

BackieJerkhart · 27/09/2017 15:28

Ok so we are using the spots as an example of art. But the people who did it aren't artists? You don't agree that someone who does a paint by numbers is an artist because you don't think it is art, now we have a piece you say is art but still the people who did it aren't artists.

anymore than following instructions to build a shed makes you an architect.

No, building a shed makes you a builder. Designing a shed makes you an architect. Just like designing art makes you an art designer and doing art makes you an artist.

BackieJerkhart · 27/09/2017 15:30

However, you are all jumping on it as if ALL art is produced by others

No-one said that. Confused we are talking about pieces that were created by people other than the person named as the artist. There is lots of art that is credited correctly.

TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge · 27/09/2017 15:31

Again, you are defining art. And no, building a shed doesn't make me a builder.

The artist is the person behind the art, not the one propping up pillows in specified places, piling up boxes, dirtying an ashtray or colouring in.

greendale17 · 27/09/2017 15:33

I didn't know this either

BackieJerkhart · 27/09/2017 15:36

And no, building a shed doesn't make me a builder.

Grin what are you then? A brick mover?

Your definitions of an artist are not fact.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 27/09/2017 15:39

So is being an assistant a recognised rite of passage/apprenticeship for an artist? Do all do it and then some go on to individual success or is it a sign of throwing the towel in?

I'm quite interested in this as one of my daughters was considering a Fine Art degree. I didn't realise there was a step between not having a job in the art world and being a successful artist. I assumed my daughter was most likely to be a starving artist or working in a shop and was quite relieved when she chose graphic design instead.

MarthaArthur · 27/09/2017 15:40

Building a shed does not make you a builder. It makes you someone who built a one off shed. Unless you start doing it a lot and developing a skill and a talent for it and curating how to do it, you are not a builder. As i said upthread an artist has to create a concept. Without that they can be an artist in their own right but the piece of art thought of by someone else is not their work. They are not the artist behind the pice.

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