to be furious they have banned Uber from London?

[Acidophilus]

WTF?

Uber has itsbissues but this is ridiculous.

TFL have bowed to Black cab pressure and we will all pay massively for it. Or get mini cabs that are less safe and treat heir drivers worse.

Plenty of Uber drivers have to work long hours in order to earn enough to live on, not all are entitled to top up benefits (eg if they don't have DCs and/or have a working partner) and many won't earn NMW once the costs of running the car and the fees they have to pay to Uber are taken into account. Imagine how much insurance for a taxi driver in London costs - it will be thousands.

Some people might make a living out of the gig economy but they're probaby in the minority and the real winners of course are Uber (and Deliveroo etc) who take a cut from everyone doing the hard work for them. And of course because all the drivers a 'self employed' they aren't entitled to sick pay and have no job security, so won't know how much they are going earn week to week. It must be a nightmare for budgeting and getting a mortgage etc will be difficult.

Plenty of Uber drivers have to work long hours in order to earn enough to live on, not all are entitled to top up benefits (eg if they don't have DCs and/or have a working partner) and many won't earn NMW once the costs of running the car and the fees they have to pay to Uber are taken into account. Imagine how much insurance for a taxi driver in London costs - it will be thousands.

That is applied to being a taxi driver in general, not specific to Uber

I'm pleased, they need to sort themselves out. Plenty of other reputable companies to use in London if you dont want a black cab.

BarbaraofSevillle

Do you have evidence to support Plenty of Uber drivers have to work long hours in order to earn enough to live on... and many won't earn NMW?

Given that Uber drivers (and Lyft) are some of the best paid among those workers who choose not to be tied to an employer, and instead choose to work in the flexible, work-whenever-you-want gig economy?

Calm down Flowerpot 1234. No one wants to stop people doing hard work if they want to. All I'm saying is do they really have a choice to work one hour a month or 10 hours a day or is it a case that they must on order to make ends meet?

I am fully awake, i understand it's the 21st century but I just have a problem with creating a low wage economy which we are seeing more and more of.

If it's this lucrative and flexible I might consider a career change.

Bicyclethief
No one wants to stop people doing hard work if they want to.

Actually yes. People all over the country now are under threat because of a recent ruling (which Uber is quite correctly appealing against) which means that gig workers will face lower wages because courts are inflicting higher costs onto people who work with them, and the opportunities for gig workers to work as flexibly and as freely as they have been doing are now under threat and in many cases on hold altogether. This is a loss of work opportunities for thousands.

All I'm saying is do they really have a choice to work one hour a month
Yes, that is matter of fact.

or 10 hours a day
If they want to, they're completely free to work 10 hours a day and bag a big bunch of earnings.

or is it a case that they must on order to make ends meet?
Uber drivers are some of the highest paid gig workers. 40,000 drivers do it.

I just have a problem with creating a low wage economy
What is low wage about Uber?

If it's this lucrative and flexible I might consider a career change.
Well that's a very sensible thing to say. It is that lucrative, especially if you work peak hours when the rate goes up, and it is that flexible. I genuinely cannot understand how anybody has a problem with the Uber-driver relationship. It's pure win-win.

FlowerPot is right and plenty of the 40,000 London Uber drivers are happy with their work. It is big business and vested interests (and socialists) who don't like disrupters like this as it spoils their cosy union deals and protectionism. Long live Uber.

Its case over whether Uber drivers are workers under EU law "workers" is not by the way about tax. It is about rights to workers rather than the tax difference between the employed and self employed. It was brought by solicitors Leigh Day and is under appeal by Uber and only related to two drivers. A law firm is crowd funding a separate case on whether Uber shoudl charge VAT (presumably they want Uber uses to ahve to pay 20% more ugh.......) which I think will fail as each Uber driver just like my local taxi office is their own business and if they are under the VAT limit then of course they don't have to charge VAT.

Big high tax state is also very keen to stop ways of working which enable people within the law to retain more of their own money. It is in all our interests to fight such moves and ensure we all keep more of our money in our own pockets rather than wasted by over paid civil servants, on foreign wars and the like.

Good. I think uber were not taking responsibility for their drivers and yes, I also backed the black cab drivers who have spent years learning their trade, as opposed to just plugging in a sat nav

I agree. I won't use Uber on principle.

I just heard the CEO of Uber on the radio saying they had 40,000 employees.

When did the drivers become employees? Do we think the company pays Employer's National Insurance on the earnings of these employees?

Or is he perhaps saying something that is not true?

I also backed the black cab drivers who have spent years learning their trade, as opposed to just plugging in a sat nav

@giantsteps I agree. I won't use Uber on principle

But this is the point. Times have changed and whilst having the knowledge could feasibly be a bonus on some occasions technology has filled that need. It is therefore no longer strictly necessary for BC drivers to do 'the knowledge' anymore.

But because they want to remain in the past they insist on retaining this now outdated model, whilst simultaneously complaining and attempting to boycott companies who see the massive black hole of opportunity they refuse to fill. They want their cake and eat it. Refuse to innovate, refuse to be as flexible, refuse to be competitive on price, restrict amount of drivers, but STILL want to retain a monopoly and also prevent competitors from providing all the above that they patently DO NOT want to provide.

Uber drivers are some of the highest paid gig workers. 40,000 drivers do it.

Really? Any stats to back that up?

uberdriverlondon.co.uk/is-it-worth-driving-for-uber-in-london/

This is obviously just one guy's experience, but he estimates that working 60 hour weeks as an uber driver in London you end up with £18,000 per year after expenses and taxes. With no holidays or sick days.

I'm broadly a supporter of Uber but even I don't think you could say this is highly paid work! Yes there are advantages in terms of flexibility and low entry barriers, but if you are actually relying solely on Uber to earn you a full time living and have a car loan to pay off, you can't really take much advantage of the flexibility factor.

OTOH I have a neighbour who is a full time accountant, but he and his brothers share a car to do Ubering on the side to earn more money. I think this is the kind of situation where it works well.

When did the drivers become employees? Do we think the company pays Employer's National Insurance on the earnings of these employees?

Do you think the black cab companies paid NI on earnings, it was a cash economy for decades, to suggest that they are any better is laughable

That article was very interesting and chimes with figures calculated by the GMB - so £23000 before tax for a 60 hour week.

When did the drivers become employees? Do we think the company pays Employer's National Insurance on the earnings of these employees?

Since a court ruled in October 2016 they were not self employed as Uber said because they were not complying with the law on holidays, pensions, working time regulations and national minimum wage by classing people who worked for them as self employed and were by definition were in fact employees.

I believe that Uber have been granted the right to appeal the decision. But as it stands, unless they can overturn the original decision employees it is.

Uber drivers are some of the highest paid gig workers
How many gig economy workers have the same expenses relating to petrol, and car maintenance. You see this court ruling is kind of weird if they are 'high paid' given the nature of the complaints given and upheld by a court.

Every driver is FREE to work as many hours as they want, whenever they want, if they want.

Except if they want to, y'know, eat or y'know, have a roof over their head, they are not free to just work two hours a week. They have to work enough hours to be able to live and if they aren't earning enough to do this by working just a few hours, they are not 'free'.

The word 'free' is very misleading, it is more accurate to simply say they are not subject to contracted hours.

'Freedom' ultimately is something you are afforded only AFTER you have paid for the basics of food and accommodation and your bills. It is stunning how many people don't grasp this. This is a concept that politicians who have 'other money' don't get.

Convenient and wilful blindness to these little details is amazing isn't it?

Gosh, that's right

"In the court's ruling, however, the judges insisted that “the notion that Uber in London is a mosaic of 30,000 small businesses linked by a common ‘platform’ is to our minds faintly ridiculous. Drivers do not and cannot negotiate with passengers… They are offered and accept trips strictly on Uber’s terms.”

The tribunal panel reserved hefty criticism for the firm, claiming that it had used "fictions," "twisted language," and "brand new terminology" to hoodwink drivers and passengers alike."

Sounds like a decent and trustworthy company, eh?

No wonder highly-paid barristers like them.

I haven't been using Uber, so I can't really comment on what they are like, and I'm sure most of their drivers are decent people trying to make a bit of extra money. But compared to being a Black cab driver, it would be very hard to make a decent living just being an Uber driver.
Uber are basically mini cabs, and certainly should have the same standard of checks etc as minicabs. Apparently they can appeal, and if they cooperate with what's being asked of them, are unlikely to be permanently shut down.

What Redtoothbrush says.

f a driver chooses from their own free will to work 10 hours a day, to earn as much as they want, are you saying you want to stop them? How dare you stop a hard worker from exercising their free will to earn more.

Don't most driving jobs have legal limits on the amount of time you can spend behind the wheel, for safety reasons?

I would be really uncomfortable getting in a cab driven by someone who was very tired from working a 70+ hour week
I can't believe you would think it's something to celebrate. Especially if It means the driver can't make a basic wage working a 40 hour week

What an utterly warped view of the world you have

Yes to what @sparechange said. Are people seriously trying to encourage drivers who could cause fatalities by being too tired behind the wheel? Anyone read about long distance lorry drivers that have caused accidents over this? Disgusting. Get a grip.

sparechange
If a driver chooses from their own free will to work 10 hours a day, to earn as much as they want, are you saying you want to stop them? How dare you stop a hard worker from exercising their free will to earn more.

Don't most driving jobs have legal limits on the amount of time you can spend behind the wheel, for safety reasons?

Yes, 10 hours a day. As set by the government as considered the maximum number of safe hours.

I can't believe you would think it's something to celebrate

I can't believe you think you know better than all safety experts who set the 10 hour limit. I can't believe you want to ruin a driver's chance to maximise their earning potential in the career they have chosen. I can't believe you want to ruin 40,000 drivers' livelihoods.

Sheridanflamingo
Are people seriously trying to encourage drivers who could cause fatalities by being too tired behind the wheel?

No, they're not. If they were too tired, they'd be above the government-set limit. 10 hours is not. Why do you keep on getting yourself worked up and complaining against things that are only in your head and not in actual reality?

RedToothBrush
Except if they want to, y'know, eat or y'know, have a roof over their head, they are not free to just work two hours a week.
No, they're FREE to work more. Uber lays on all the opportunities for them to earn more, should they wish to take it.

They have to work enough hours to be able to live and if they aren't earning enough to do this by working just a few hours, they are not 'free'.
They can choose to take Uber leads, they can choose to work for their local taxi firm, they can choose to train and become a black cabbie, they can choose to drive whilst they study for PhDs, they can choose to drive for Uber after they've been a consultant surgeon to pay the bills, they can choose to walk away and have nothing to do with Uber immediately, they are FREE to work however many hours they want.

The word 'free' is very misleading, it is more accurate to simply say they are not subject to contracted hours.
The word FREE is really easy to understand. Does a Uber driver have to do anything? No. Are they free to take their labour at the drop of a hat to anyone else in an instant? Yes. Are they tied in? No. Can they work for competitors? Yes. Can they hate Uber as much as you and walk away in a second? Yes.

'Freedom' ultimately is something you are afforded only AFTER you have paid for the basics of food and accommodation and your bills.
Don't make me laugh. The gig economy is freedom. Your old school ideas will soon be dead and buried.

@flowerpot i don't care - uber is gone, hopefully permanently, which makes me happy. For many reasons. All of which are in my head

failed
Uber drivers are some of the highest paid gig workers. 40,000 drivers do it.
Really? Any stats to back that up?

Yep, academics, financial institutions and media have all done studies. Google to find them, there's quite a few.