To think I should not pay to join an orchestra?

[Orchestramum]

DD 7 was desperate to join the school orchestra. Yesterday I approached her primary school music teacher and was shocked because apparently you have to pay good money to join in. I have several DC who had attended state schools, private schools and one grammar school and I had never paid for the school orchestra. AIBU to think it should be free and accessible to all children?

Headofthehive, I can't read a single note. If I could I would definitely try and set it up for free.

It sounds 'off' to me - like the school are using every conceivable opportunity to get more money from the parents. I'd want to know exactly where that money was going if I was paying. If it is to cover the music/hire the teacher then fair enough and you can choose whether you consider it sufficient value for money to join and pay.
If it's just going into general school coffers, I would think that it is just an opportunity to rinse parents for extra money.

My dc have music lessons that I pay for and are actively encouraged to join the orchestra (not charged). The school values music and seems to want pupils to progress.

My daughter is at secondary, but I pay £40 a term for her to go to school orchestra, plus a contribution towards refreshments. I'm quite happy to pay that amount, she gets so much out of it. It's a drop in the ocean compared to the £200 per term per instrument music tuition.

I'm fairly sure the county also run an orchestra, but I don't know how much that is - to be honest, I'd expect it to be more than we pay for the school orchestra.

I don't expect orchestra to be free, anymore than I expect dance lessons to be free, or football lessons to be free or swim squad to be free or any other extra curricular clubs that I choose to send my children to. My children, my choice, my responsibility.

It's why some of us use private schools. I sent my DD1 as there was lots of extra curricular stuff.

"It sounds 'off' to me - like the school are using every conceivable opportunity to get more money from the parents. I'd want to know exactly where that money was going if I was paying. If it is to cover the music/hire the teacher then fair enough and you can choose whether you consider it sufficient value for money to join and pay.
If it's just going into general school coffers, I would think that it is just an opportunity to rinse parents for extra money."

Do you really think the school is going to fleece the parents for general funds?

The orchestra sounds terrible. It's just a bunch of kids playing twinkle twinkle little star during their lunchtime. I thought it was a good opportunity to learn how to play with other kids. But it feels a rip off to actually pay for it.

Honestly, I don't know. If schools set a fee for joining ochestra do they have a legal obligation to spend that money directly on orchestra costs? Or are they allowed to spend it elsewhere.
I'm not for a minute saying that money isn't spent on pupils but does it have to be those exact pupils whose parents have paid for orchestra?

My dc's school runs free sports clubs after school. How is it that they can afford to do this but other schools can't? Don't they all get the same budget per pupil?

Our school runs invitation only gymnastics club and a football club. Both free of charge. I think sport is generally valued more than music.

How long has this orchestra been going?

One of the teachers at DD's old primary school started an orchestra 13 years ago. Obviously, to start with they weren't very good. They are now an award winning orchestra, having played at the Birmingham Symphony Hall and the Albert Hall. The teacher (who teaches violin in all her spare time) is already on the payroll as a year group teacher. Her dedication has won her Classic FM primary school music teacher of the year and an MBE.

All this will have incurred costs of course. You can't hire a coach to Birmingham or London for free. Instruments will need replacing, music will have to be paid for etc.

"Don't they all get the same budget per pupil?"

No, not at all. Our LA gets one of the lowest funding per pupil in the country. Parts of London get twice as much per pupil as DD's school. This doesn't take London weighting or pupil premium into account. It is just the base amount. The school and parents have been campaigning for a fairer funding formula and the head teacher has even been on TV about it. We have been lobbying our local MP who is doing what she can, but her party is not in power so all she can do is raise it in the House of Commons over and over again.

Lonicera, our school is a London school. Not sure if it makes a difference.

Schools are under immense financial pressure and seem to be looking at every possible way of making money.
Other extra-curricular activities are probably charged for as well, especially if a coach has to be brought in from outside.
If they are charging more than about 40 to 50 pounds a year for the lunchtime school orchestra you describe, run by a member of staff, then they are taking the mick.
I used to run one years ago and got no money at all but still managed to make it work. (Classroom teacher, did it during my lunch break, arranged music myself at home or bought things with my own money)

To be completely honest with you I think it could be a bit of a waste of time (and money) for your DD as she is already at a very good standard for 7 years old. You would be better off looking around the local area, contacting the music service at the LEA or googling to find an orchestra out of school times which would have a broader range of abilities and perhaps graded orchestras where she can play music suited to her level. It would probably cost about the same as your school seems to be suggesting and she would get more out of it.

If she is doing 7 after school activities a week and one of them isn't an orchestra I think that needs looking at. Playing in a group is really important for musical development, apart from the fact she will get to know other children and it is a lot of fun.

I was in a primary school orchestra and the choir back in the 1990s and there was a termly fee. I'm so glad my parents paid it as I absolutely adored both - gave me a wider social circle, more confidence and in general was just really good fun.

Spaghetti, you sounds amazing! Wish my DD had such dedicated teachers at her school. To join an outside orchestra she'll have to drop the only sport activity she is (reluctantly) doing at the moment. Other activities are crucial and unfortunately can't be dropped.

My dc's school runs free sports clubs after school. How is it that they can afford to do this but other schools can't? Don't they all get the same budget per pupil?

I don't know - but my DC current school manages to do these.

I suspect their shcool may be able to access some additional ring fenced funds - it's an extremely poor catchment area with many overweight children - so I image there could well be some specific funding to encourage sports and the school seems to have a lot of experince looking for such sources.

Sounds=sound.

Or maybe the orchestra is over-subscribed, so they give it free to some (Pupil premium free for example) but certainly don't need to give it free to a child who is already getting lots of money spent on them for music, but generally the money is there to match capacity.

Yes, a lottery or other system could be used, but raising some money from those that can afford to pay to help pay for more instruments etc. is probably a good thing.

I also think that sports clubs probably incur fewer costs as the schools may already have the equipment, and will already have the teachers. Not all school teachers will have the skill and qualifications to run an orchestra.

SirFred, I suspect you are right and some kids are attending free of charge. It might be fair but makes it pricey for the rest of the parents.

Do you really think the school is going to fleece the parents for general funds?

Dunno - but the PTA certainly did at my kids last school - every even was an opportunity to fleece you for as much as they could, as quickly as they could rather than actually have fun and build a community. Think tiny cheap burger/hotdog for a fiver, scoop of tescos vanilla icecream for 1.50, cakes that we'd baked and taken in at a quid each, and even if you were on a stall you had to pay for a cup of tea.

It was so clearly mercenary that DP and I used to just go, dump 30 quid as quickly as possible (10 minutes was the record - and that was without food) and leave. We'd have preferred to just pay a subscription in the end.

Contrasts poorly with current school, where fund raising is a thing, but not at the expense of the kids actually having fun.

Orchestra wise, I've never heard of paying, if you're already paying for lessons.

YABVU my son is in year 2 in a london school and because of budget cuts very few after school clubs are available. The school and the teachers do their upmost with the very few resources they have.

The orchestra sounds terrible. It's just a bunch of kids playing twinkle twinkle little star during their lunchtime. I thought it was a good opportunity to learn how to play with other kids. But it feels a rip off to actually pay for it.

Yes quite possible that is the case but at least there is an interest there, and I do hope that someone, a child somewhere sees or gets the benefit.

Was at a few prom concerts this year and felt like saying a very big thank you to all those who did this sort of encouragement and support albeit in sometimes obscure ways:-)

For the younger generation that is - was at this Prom, Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony performed by the National Youth Orchestra albeit aided by a couple of oldies Cynthia Millar and Joanna MacGregor as excellent as it was on stage what was more the thing was i was sitting next to a gaggle of teenage children from somewhere up north who for a lot of the time were pointing out various parts of the orchestra and were whispering things to each other obviously very involved!, that normally would have been considered a nuisance by the average concert goer but on this occasion more humbling at their interest !

And long may that live among the younger generation:)

Here have a listen and look and Enjoy:-)

Us musicians and teachers need to make a living. The conservatives have slashed arts funding. Simple. And dreadful. I agree that we shouldn't have to pay but apparently music is less important than geography.

What after school activities is she doing that you consider crucial?

I'm sure her teachers are perfectly dedicated - to the job which is teaching the curriculum. It's not running an orchestra!

Just thinking outside the box - have you considered helping with one of your other activities - some of my children's ones give fee remission if you are a leader. That would free up money for this activity.

Lots of children's activities by the way are run by mums and dad's, here both football, and brownies.