Work related disciplinary

[Grimmfebruary]

Posting for traffic.

Anyone up to speed on disciplinary procedures and fact finders and 'he said she said' cases?

Get your union involved, they will provide expertise and support in any interviews so that you don't get steamrollered or manipulated.

Yep. More info needed.

Apparently the initial meeting is only a 'fact find' to establish what happened, basically I've reportedly called someone an offensive term (I have no recollection of the incident and I always own up to running my mouth) and work tell me the context or actual phrase I've supposedly said, they've just referenced the offending word.

It's not a word I would use. I can't remember saying it. I have a clean work history and people would agree it's not a word I would use. I'm terrified I'm going to be sacked and I'm pregnant and can't afford to be sacked.

Try employment issues section - employment lawyers often lurk on there!

Is it possible that they are trying to get rid of you because you are pregnant and trying to find a valid excuse? If so get yourself a lawyer.

What was the word? Were there witnesses?

Have a look in your Employee's Policy Handbook. There should be details of the procedure in that.

They will need to launch an investigation so will hold 'interview' style meetings with you and the other party, and anyone else who may have been involved or witnessed the incident.
It'll then be passed onto a disciplinary manager who will review the interviews and listen to what has been uncovered. They will then make a decision which could be verbal warning, file note, written warning, final warning, dismissal etc.
In this case, if it was a he said she said, id probably say you would end up with a warning or file note.
You can always appeal if you like.

Apparently there were 3 complaints about it but the person I've reportedly said it to can't remember me saying it either.

I'm not the first person who has been pregnant in the job so I don't think they're just looking for an excuse?

Unless there is a witness that credits the other person, they can't prove what you've done. Now is the time to make sure you don't piss anyone off that might double cross you, some people are arses.

Ok so if the alleged victim doesn't remember then it makes the other 3 look like they're lying. Look over your past transactions with these people. Could any of them have a grudge?

No I can't remember saying what I've allegedly said. It's not a word I would use. It's not racist it is derogatory but it's not a word I would ever use!

3 people have 'overheard' me call another staff member it to my friend. My friend can't remember me saying it.

It is he said she said but I always own to running my mouth but as 3 people have complained it just makes me look like a liar.

I think in this case if the 3 have colluded together to lie about something they say you said you should be asking the management to ask them all separately where and when it took place? It is possible that they will be caught out in their lie if they say different days or places.

Is it a term you might have said in a joking way.

Like - did you see Sally fall over? yes, she's a nutter. (rather than meaning she had MH problems).

Yeah if I have said it at all it will have been without malice. My friend uses the term a lot to insult me in a joking manner.

I'm more upset about the fact that o genuinely can't remember saying it, I always own up to my mouth running away with me.

The person I've allegedly insulted wasn't even present and they have no proof yet they have been told my management I've reportedly called them this. Work won't even give me a copy of the complaint, they just keep saying I've allegedly called so and so an xyz while talking to a colleague.

Sorry OP but if three witnesses heard you say it, you admit it's a word the person you were speaking to says regularly, and you are saying that "if" you said it, it was "without malice", I suspect you probably DID say it.

Can't imagine you'd get sacked for it though - it's not likely to be gross misconduct. I would imagine it would be a written warning at worst, especially given there's no "evidence".

Have to agree with peachgreen here. We've gone from "I didn't say it and it's a he said/she said and the victim didn't hear it" to "there were three witnesses, the victim wasn't actually there but my friend was and my friend is backing me, and my mouth does often run away and if I actually did say it then I'd just have been joking..."

It's all quite different from the way the information was originally presented, wasn't it?

tight lips, say 'where's the recording?' and say 'this sounds like bullying'
repeat until fade.

eg 'so were you there?' say 'I;m sorry, this sounds like bullying', and 'do you do acknowledge you are often vocal. 'look, I'm sorry, this just sounds like bullying, is there a recording? Objective evidence?'

When you've said it a few times, say 'look, I think I've been clear, it sounds and feels like bullying, if you can't provide evidence, I'm leaving the meeting, but I'm going to ask you explicity, please do not participate in this bullying'

What I'm more confused about is why your friend (the one that uses this term all the time) isn't also in trouble. Presumably you don't have much of a problem with it personally given you don't call him or her up on it. (I'm assuming this is the R-word, but I could be wrong. People love to throw that one around. Ugh.)

At my work, that would be a verbal warning and nothing else

If they have told you the first meeting is just an investigatory meeting, there will be no sanction imposed at this stage. They will listen to your version of events and then decide whether to hold a formal disciplinary meeting (after which a sanction could be imposed). If 3 people heard you say the derogatory term and you can put forward no credible reason as to why these three people would want to lie about you, I suspect you are likely to be found 'guilty'. Whether it would be fair to dismiss you for it would depend on all the circumstances including what you said, to who, about who, why you did it, previous disciplinary record and your general attitude to the situation (e.g. if people are very apologetic then in some circumstances that can count in their favour).

Also relevant will be how others who have done similar things in the past have been treated - if management generally turn a blind eye to such things but are taking it more seriously in your case that could make the sanction unfair

It is he said she said but I always own to running my mouth

Do you do a lot of "running your mouth"?

Most people in your situation would either say categorically "yes, I did say it/no, I didn't".

Not, "I can't remember whether I said it and even if I did, it would have been without malice."

Hi OP, I'm an employment lawyer.

First and foremost please don't do what scaryclown suggested, it would be obstructive, would make you look like a nutter and wouldn't help your case in the slightest.

To answer your question, to discipline or dismiss in a he said/she said situation, all the employer needs to do is demonstrate that they genuinely believed in your guilt, on the balance of probabilities (i.e. is it more likely than not that you committed the "offence"). It's essentially a 51/49 type situation and there's no requirement to prove a case either way. But with three statements saying you did insult your colleague versus your statement saying you didn't, on the face of it they could fairly discipline or dismiss (assuming there aren't any other outside circumstances you haven't mentioned here).

Depending on what you said, unfortunately, it could be gross misconduct, but usually they would have to support that view with previous action in similar circumstances and/or something written into their disciplinary or bullying and harassment policies.

You're entitled to defend yourself at a disciplinary hearing (you could theoretically ask to cross examine the witnesses if there are holes in their statements). You need to prepare yourself as well as you can and take a work colleague as a companion and witness (assuming you're not in a union).

Being pregnant won't protect you if they genuinely believe that you are guilty and there is sufficient evidence for a reasonable employer to make that finding - the only way it protects you is if they fabricated the entire process because of your pregnancy.

Sorry, probably not what you wanted to hear, but better to be prepared.

Sorry I should add - the "victim" will need to be asked to provide a statement to confirm it didn't happen - if they fail to do that, it won't be a fair and balanced investigation.

And scaryclown wonders why they repeatedly have problems with bosses.