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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Work related disciplinary

48 replies

Grimmfebruary · 12/09/2017 19:20

Posting for traffic.

Anyone up to speed on disciplinary procedures and fact finders and 'he said she said' cases?

OP posts:

FooFighter99 · 13/09/2017 15:15

Could it not be that your friend was actually the one who said the insult and your colleagues mis-heard?

StealthPolarBear · 13/09/2017 15:24

Something is odd here.

Xeneth88 · 13/09/2017 15:32

Do NOT follow scaryclows advice, it will make you seem completely guilty and is ridiculously obstructive.

shirtyQwerty · 13/09/2017 15:46

As a slight aside, is it schadenfreude to enjoy it when someone with actual experience like MrsPinkCock explains why another poster is talking out their arse?

CotswoldStrife · 13/09/2017 15:53

I get the impression from your constant reference to 'running your mouth' OP that you already have a reputation for this. It seems strange that three witnesses would complain if it's not true and there is no backstory with the witnesses.

Considering you normally 'own' running your mouth, has this been raised before?

Bombardier25966 · 13/09/2017 16:07

Sorry I should add - the "victim" will need to be asked to provide a statement to confirm it didn't happen - if they fail to do that, it won't be a fair and balanced investigation.

The comment was made about the "victim", not to them. No one is disputing that they did not hear it. Their feelings about the issue are relevant, but would only be taken into account once it has been ascertained whether the incident occurred or not, in deciding on what would be an appropriate sanction.

Original poster

Grimmfebruary · 13/09/2017 16:54

It's not been raised before and I have a clean work record but I am loud and admit I'm loud.

They've given me more evidence now and im 100% certain I have never called that person they've alleged. It was more likely to be my colleague who has said it but because I'm known for being loud it appears I've been slapped with it.

OP posts:

MrsPinkCock · 13/09/2017 17:02

@Grimmfebruary

Presumably the colleague with whom you had the conversation has been asked to provide a statement?

Original poster

Grimmfebruary · 13/09/2017 17:11

They have. Also people sitting around as well as the original complainants.

OP posts:

PoorYorick · 13/09/2017 17:14

It sounds as though your colleague said it and for some reason the witnesses think it was you.

I don't know where you'd go from there... @MrsPinkCock?

SandyY2K · 13/09/2017 17:19

Not read all replies ...
HR employee here. Unless it was a racist, sexist or homophobic term you're unlikely to be dismissed.

With three witnesses, I'd view that as you did say whatever is alleged

I have had someone dismissed for calling someone a 'typical angry black man'. That's gross misconduct.

Witchend · 13/09/2017 17:20

I can't imagine the situation where three witnesses hear something said and all get a colleague mixed up with the same different colleague.
Either you did say it, or they have a reason to say it's you.

scaryclown · 13/09/2017 17:37

You should be able to ask the witnesses too. Centre questions on so you heard the word, were you looking directly at me? How do you know it was me that said it, what makes you say that.

I've had someone say I said something to her I categorically did not and as soon as I asked a question like this she started ranting about how I thought I was better than her and didn't deserve a job and who does she think she is. Said person went sick, then tried to pin an 'accident' on me.

I've also had a situation where I tried to say 'maybe I could have' and 'well you know we were all stressed' to sound reasonable and spent half an hour having to deny it was only me that was stressed and 'well you said you could have so you accept its possible'" chinks in denials to sound reasonable can always be used by people who are relying only on information from you and the other. They will be sure by now, do you need to unsettle that and be sure yourself or you'll get a default warning 'in case',

DailyMailReadersAreThick · 13/09/2017 17:40

What is the word?

scaryclown · 13/09/2017 17:42

Also never underestimate the power of one person saying OMG she just called her a bitch' when nothing of the sort has happened. This happened to me at a virgin rail counter when I said 'bit rich' as I turned away, the person at the next counter said 'she called you a bitch' the person I was speaking to called a security guard who were a claiming they heard me. The security guard can't possibly have done anything but see the reaction of the other two, but was still convinced.

People are weird, and HR professionals can be guilty of 'aha a chance to use my grievance training' which can push the process further towards formality than it need to..

MrsPinkCock · 13/09/2017 17:46

@PoorYorick

Yes that's probably the case. It's tricky but I suppose if i was in that situation, I'd put that to the employer during the hearing and see what they say. I'd also potentially ask to cross examine the witnesses at the disciplinary hearing (depending on how flaky the statements are) and ask them if there's any possibility that it could have been colleague B that made the comment, how close they were to the conversation and how sure they were that it was OP that made the comment and whether they had simply assumed it was the OP... but it could do more harm than good, as you shouldn't ever really cross examine without knowing the answers that will be given, as it could damage the disciplinary case further! Not to mention that the witnesses may be unwilling to admit they were wrong as a) they want to save face, and b) they don't want to be seen to be disloyal to the employer by changing their story.

This is the problem with these types of cases - when it's 3 v 1, without solid evidence such as CCTV, you can't disprove the allegations and you can be fairly dismissed for something you haven't even done! Your best bet is to try and put sufficient doubt into the employers mind and try and find holes in the investigation in an attempt to show that a reasonable and through investigation wasn't completed, but it's hard to say how to go about that without seeing any of the evidence....

The OPs best bet is to be as convincing as possible during any hearing!

Slimthistime · 13/09/2017 17:47

OP I am not a lawyer

I'm just sharing something that has occurred to me
obviously I have never met you so please take this as neutrally as you can

you admit to being very loud. I have seen this cause upset and confusion in other offices. So if the witnesses are asked and convinced it is you, is it possible that someone else (the person you think said it) said while you were there and you agreed? Or at least didn't contradict it and it's been associated with you because it seems the type of thing you'd say?

SandyY2K · 13/09/2017 23:17

Also bear in mind that a disciplinary hearing (if it comes to that), is based on the balance of probabilities. It doesn't require 100% certainty.

EveHen · 21/02/2021 08:11

LakieLady · 21/02/2021 08:21

AIBU to be dying to know what the word was?

8bitgame · 21/02/2021 08:33

It doesn’t sound like it would be gross misconduct even if found to be true.

Employment law works on a premise of the balance of probability rather than beyond reasonable doubt like criminal law so the complaint may be upheld if there are three witnesses. Get your union rep involved (Though they may not be able to attend an informal stage meeting - worth asking though) and check your companies procedures.
How long have you worked there?

8bitgame · 21/02/2021 08:39

(Doesn’t sounds like GM unless it was racist / homophobic etc or part of a pattern / campaign of bullying or harassment etc)

Ileflottante · 21/02/2021 08:52

This happened 3.5 years ago.

Why @EveHen put a full stop and reinvigorated the thread I’ll never know. Were you the gobby OP of yore?

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