To not really get the argument for starting school much later

[Spottylu]

I keep seeing articles about how we are damaging our kids by sending them to school so early.

On the face of it, I agree, except I understood early years was all about learning through play. So without insulting any early years teachers, is it that different from the style of learning done in preschool?

I struggle to see what the alternative would be if we moved the school age intake to 7 like some of the Scandinavian countries, as I am assuming the idea isn't that a parent stops work and become a sahp unless that is their choice.

So of the alternative is just more nursery/preschool, isn't the early years system we have at least as good if not better?

HungerOfThePine

When a 7 year old can't read, it's time to look beyond blaming the system.

If a "clever" child can't understand letters and numbers by 7, you need specialist help. I'm ex-AEN and say this from a supportive standpoint.

Oops. Re summer born babies there is 5 day 15 minute serial on impact of birth month on Radio 4 at moment. Very interesting. Runs through what impact is and why. Available on catch up

We literally gain 3 months of proper, actual education by not having them

Its insanity! We only have one 'big' set of testing here, done at the end of compulsory schooling (so 15yrs old) which is of course stressful just like GCSEs are but its just the one set of tests. There's of course plenty of testing done throughout the school years but they're teacher-written tests as part of their continuous assessment of progress and not something that the children stress about for months before, more along the lines of weekly spelling tests in the UK in terms of importance.

Anatidae I think the early years format is part of what makes the Swedes, and Finns generally rule-following etc. the big focus on emotional and social education really helps with that which then makes things easier later on as there's less disruption in class (of course children are still naughty but I haven't heard of it being anywhere near the same level I experienced in school in the UK)

@shirtyQwerty already on it currently being assessed for Add or Adhd this past year so hopefully a conclusion and support soon, as well as other agencies involved.

So I might retract what I said before in the way it's not wholly the system at fault in her case.

In Ireland the system is very flexible, the minimum start age is 4 but once kids are enrolled by age 6 parents can choose when they start. Most kids start at around 5 after two years of play based preschool. They finish by about 1.30pm for the first couple of years, 3pm seems a very long day for a 4 year old.

I wish we had a flexible system. Of mine, DD was more than ready to start at 4 whereas her brothers were less ready. Ironically, she's a September baby so she had to wait until she was nearly 5 by which time she was reading fluently and would have been better placed in the year above, being the youngest instead of the oldest.

Natsku I thought the only big set of testing in Finland was at the end of lukio, so more like age 18? If you have time, could you explain? - I'm very interested in Finnish education.

Natsku I thought the only big set of testing in Finland was at the end of lukio, so more like age 18? If you have time, could you explain? - I'm very interested in Finnish education

No you're right, got confused! Its the matriculation exams at the end of Lukio (high school) which is roughly 19 years old (start at about 16 and takes 3 years usually).

Also Lukio isn't compulsory (compulsory education ends after 9th grade, there's an optional 10th grade to improve grades), teenagers can choose vocational school or a combined school instead and it's split roughly 50/50 between vocational and academic high schools (a tiny percentage drop out entirely at 15/16 but that's very rare).

Some high schools are specialised in certain subjects and teenagers apply from across the country to get in and live in student digs or with relatives (which is why there's a big emphasis on teaching children to be independent here from a young age, so they're ready to live alone at 16 if necessary for school)

Thanks!

@GrasswillbeGreener
Certainly having summer babies was a factor when we looked at schools. DS3 was able to join a class of 7 in September rather than a class of 30 the following January.

No problem kesstrel the education system here is one of the key reasons I won't move back to the UK (and the social welfare system and general better level of equality) despite it being really difficult at times to live abroad and missing the simple pleasures of the UK (like being able to hold a casual conversation without having to work my brain on overdrive to get the language right!). I'm very lucky that DD gets to go to school here, she would not have done well starting at 4 for various reasons.

I think it's mostly nonsense spouted by people who have strange ideas about school.

TBH, I probably used to think similarly. Then I saw the class DS would have gone into had we stayed in the UK, and it was genuinely lovely.

We live in Germany now so he did start school at almost 7 (autumn birthday) and while it's been fine in many ways, I also think he would have been fine in that nice school we had in England.

Sometimes I see home educating friends spouting stuff about what they think school is like and I don't recognise it. I do think home ed is lovely and I wish I had the patience for it TBH but school isn't awful, there are a lot of good schools around and I think 4 year olds in a supportive environment can do very well.

I do find certain approaches slow in DS's school. For example he is in the third year now (equivalent of UK year 4, but only just started) and they are "not allowed to multiply past 100" (ie 10x10) and seemed to spend an entire year learning how to form letters and numbers which seemed to me to be a massive waste of time - it hasn't even improved his handwriting at all. He doesn't know anything about fractions, got confused when I tried to talk about halves and quarters and last year he had a whole homework sheet which consisted of explaining the differences between a circle, triangle and rectangles/squares.

On the plus side they are already studying a foreign language (French here).

A number of posters have expressed a wish for more flexibility. As I understand it children do not have to start school until the start of the term after their 5th birthday, so actually most of us could have delayed the start of school by at least one term and those with summer birthdays don't have to start until year 1.

I understand why many parents choose not to delay school - but they can do.

Agree it depends on the child. My summer birthday child was reading before she started primary school and was more than ready to start at only just 4. But I was glad that my autumn birthday child didn't start until she was very nearly 5.

I'm English but living in Scotland. There are only two weeks between my Feb 2012 born DD and her English cousin, however he had to start school in Sept 2016 whereas, because we're in Scotland we were able to defer DD for a year and she started this August. Because of this she (& several of her classmates) were able to do an extra year at the pre-school attached to the school she attends. At 5.6 she was ready to start school - the approach to P1 in her Edinburgh school is very gentle - lots of different activity tables the kids can choose from, breakaway areas and outdoor lessons. Most of the state schools here finish at 12 on Fridays too so the kids get an extra bit of weekend relax time. I'm so happy that we're here - she just wouldn't have been ready last year at all.

Emma: that's my point. The English cousin didn't have to start last September. They could have waited until the term after their 5th birthday.

"Londoncheapo yes Greek, Russian, German are all notoriously easy to learn to read and write! DCs could start school at10yo and pick up those languages in a term!"

Are you being sarcastic? All those writing systems are easier to learn that English. German is a relatively difficult alphabetic writing system but it's still easier than English. Greek and Russian are also much easier to learn than English. I know Russian looks foreign/weird to the eyes of native English speakers because "those letters look backwards!" but it is a lot more regular than English and Russian speakers do not find it hard to learn their own writing system.

From what I have heard, the Finnish system basically does accountability/controls in a different way to the UK.

Teachers are heavily selected and it is much harder to train to be a teacher than in England. And the curriculum is determined by the central government, and supported by high quality textbooks (which are heavily used by teachers).

This is probably part of the reason why the Finns are able to get away with not having things like SATs and Ofsted. If you have teachers you can really really rely on and everyone has to teach to the same curriculum anyway, it is a lot easier to trust teachers to just get on with the job.

I too worry about SATs creating perverse incentives like teaching to the test and narrowing curriculum. But just taking away SATs would not turn England into Finland--you would need to put the other things in place, like the higher quality teachers and centrally mandated, high-quality curriculum. Scotland has done away with SATs and many of the controls that we have in England and it hasn't resulted in soaring academic levels. England has a narrowed curriculum as a result of SATs, but the lack of SATs has resulted in the Scottish curriculum going soggy and losing its academic focus.

We moved to Australia when DD2 was just finishing year 2 in England and DD1 was about to go to High school.

DD1 was fine...she went into middle school here in Oz and it was great because it wasn't as grown up as High School...they go at 13-14 here....

DD2 who was about to go into Juniors in the UK wasn't up to scratch by UK standards in terms of literacy or numeracy and she was very stressed out...she knew she wasn't at the levels they wanted.

When she entered her new Australian class, she was in grade 2...I watched the stress fall off her as she realised that here, the kids were the same as her...with some exceptions who were naturally very good at reading.

There was NO pressure...she was able to play more.

Now she's 9 and her reading has taken off...with wings.

I think, had we stayed in England that she would have grown more and more stressed and school avoidant.

Here, she loves school and her teacher is happy with her progress.

I genuinely think it depends on the child. I have 3 children all of whom are summer born.
Eldest (now 11) started at 4 and has done well and loved it.
Middle (now 6) Is an August born and started at just turned 4 and is actually very advanced for their age in reading and spelling. Thriving there.
My youngest (now 2) has quite a few developmental delays so that will be a bridge I cross when I get to it.

With the amount of knowledge children leave school with these days, does it really have to take 12 years. I don't think so, so much time wasted.

My childrens cousins at school in Scandinavia started school 2 years later than mine did in the UK but quickly catch up as rhey are more ready to learn shen older.

I think children start school far too young in the UK but I think its needed as not everyone attenda nursery and the nurseries are not the same standard as in Scandinavia. Scandinavian children are sort of educated/ socialised in nursery so they are at a more equal level when they start school.

I started school when I was nearly 8

In the US depending on the state, elementary school starts at 5 or 6 years old - we call this class "kindergarten" and it's technically play-oriented but it's getting more academic unfortunately. Most states allow flexibility to start at 6 depending on what month of the year the child is born. In some states they have introduced universal pre-kindergarten for 4-5 year olds that is play-based.

In my opinion children benefit from joining a play-based program from age 3-4 but not starting formal schooling until 6. Especially boys.

This gives a great overview of the Finnish school system. Teachers get paid better comparatively and the curriculum is not as descriptive (or as ever changing) as the UK. Usually the higher the wage offered (and the lesser the political involvement) the better quality teachers you can get.