To not really get the argument for starting school much later

[Spottylu]

I keep seeing articles about how we are damaging our kids by sending them to school so early.

On the face of it, I agree, except I understood early years was all about learning through play. So without insulting any early years teachers, is it that different from the style of learning done in preschool?

I struggle to see what the alternative would be if we moved the school age intake to 7 like some of the Scandinavian countries, as I am assuming the idea isn't that a parent stops work and become a sahp unless that is their choice.

So of the alternative is just more nursery/preschool, isn't the early years system we have at least as good if not better?

Unstructured play has massive benefits, but what happens in reception et al isn't unstructured on the whole. It is teachers setting up scenes and settings designed to meet the tick boxes prescribed by the Eyfs. Totally different things.

Proper unstructured play enables children to get bored and create something for themselves, to work out their own group dynamics etc.

UpYouGo

The radicalness comes from learning through play as opposed to learning through structured play or investigation.

4-6 year olds learning through absolutely free play ie. free reign to dictate exactly what they do for x hours a day is radical nonsense, IMO.

The absolutely true GCSE results were to back up my beliefs in ignoring radical unschooling-type methods for teaching children.

Whilst creating lifelong learners is the ultimate aim, a young adult with a true love of learning but one who doesn't have the skills or aptitude to pass IB or get into a university or obtain professional qualifications is not a flourishing member of society.

Does your school have as good results? If not, are lesser result a trade-off in fun vs quality of education (quality in the traditional sense of great grades)?

We also track students results at university and whilst I don't have them to hand (or memorised), we're equally proud that the continue to thrive when on their own and self-studying in HE.

We believe that education can be its own reward and try to impart this philosophy on the students. Fun can't always trump achievement. Not doubt to your disdain, our sports day and other intramural events have 1st, 2nd and 3rd trophies.

Not doubt to your disdain, our sports day and other intramural events have 1st, 2nd and 3rd

What a ridiculous assumption and nothing to do with what we are discussing.

I'm just sharing practice, it's what good teachers do. There really is no need to be so defensive in your posting, it's coming across as a bit odd tbh.

If you believe in your methods and it works for your children, then do it. But don't completely close your mind to all alternatives because it's only the children in your care that lose out. There is a huge middle ground that is worth exploring.

4-6 year olds learning through absolutely free play works though, its worked over here for decades. It shouldn't be taken in isolation of the other factors that impact learning of course (like special ed available to everyone, small class sizes, frequent breaks to improve concentration etc.) but it is definitely not radical nonsense, its well understood by teaching professionals in Finland (where teaching methods are decided by teachers not politicians) and other Nordic countries and increasingly elsewhere.

I think you could probably get away with starting education a year later (5 rather than 4), but no later than that. It takes time to learn to read and write English--most European languages are quite a lot easier to learn to read.

Think about maths, for example. To ensure that children are understanding mathematical concepts and able to apply what they do, it's important to do word problems as well as abstract ones involving only numbers. But to have children do word problems, they have to be able to read fairly fluently. It takes a couple of years or more to read and write English reasonably fluently, even at a basic level--you kind of need them to start their reading education no later than five.

English is also far harder to teach--it's not like Finland or Italy, where parents can quite easily teach their children the basics of literacy simply by pointing out letters and sounds while they read picture books to them.

I'm in France and they do not start school at 3yo. They start maternelle, or pre-school, at 3yo for three years. They do a lot of Montessori type learning, a lot of free play and some more structured activities like sitting and listening to a book being read. Pre-school is also not compulsory so you can take them out for a break or holidays or have them attend just half-days.

They then start school proper at 6yo, but there is a three year learning cycle during which they consolidate their first reading, writing and maths skills, which allows for children to learn following different rhythms. Our school has dropped homework in faveur of revision, a voluntary revision of materials where families can pick and choose what their child needs to revise. So my DD is spared having to do homework saying her name in English but can revise her French vocabulary.

Londoncheapo yes Greek, Russian, German are all notoriously easy to learn to read and write! DCs could start school at10yo and pick up those languages in a term!

The popularity of English around the globe is very much based on how simple it is to read and write. Try having 7 different spellings for the sound 'i' and a syntax that gives adult native speakers a headache despite 2,500 years of attempts to simplify it!

I'm in a Scandinavian country.

The whole set up is different here. Small groups with mixed ages up to five (the five year olds are in a separate group but all share the playground.) outside most of the time. Dedicated university educated teachers. Genuinely caring, Food provided. The whole ethos is different. 120 quid max a month, means tested.

They gradually socialise and turn them into tiny halfway civilised people THEN they have a year at 6 where they have a kind of halfway house, with some short lessons but mainly play, then they start at seven with proper school.

My only beef is not reading - I read by 2 and it was a big part of my life, but I can teach ds that at home.

Scandi preschool system is so much better than the uk. After that though, our schools (Sweden) are poor - uk much better.

Anatidae

"After that though, our schools (Sweden) are poor - uk much better."

Interesting. Why do you say so (and where in Scandi are you from?)?

Yes, I realise the idiocy in my post re. where are you from.

Why do you think the UK's better though?

Swedish schools (past seven) have dropped massively in quality over the last ten years or so.

The consensus is that the (admirable) child centred approach has morphed from child centred to ridiculously hippy and permissive and has descended into chaos. Very little discipline (and by discipline I don't mean birching them I mean basic manners, respect for each other, classroom control.)

There's also been a HUGE population influx due to the refugee crisis in Europe. It's difficult to express how much this has affected us because it can sound like you're bashing forriners (and I am a forriner, and I'm not bashing) but we are struggling - Sweden has typically been a very homogenous rule abiding country and we've had a massive influx which includes kids who are traumatised and need specialist help, kids whose first language isn't Swedish (we don't have enough classroom resource to deal with it) and kids whose parents have no idea how the social Norms here work. Plus sheer numbers. The system (health as well) is creaking. It's not coping well just now.

Schools are declining in quality - we just need to get a bit more back to the original respectful child centred approach in my opinion, and realise that a bit of discipline is preferably to anarchy, and that telling kids who are 13 they need to turn their phone off and listen isn't child abuse ;) and resources to properly integrate all the newcomers.

Thanks. Interesting.

Honestly, I stopped reading about the 'late to school' arguements a good few years ago as they simply weren't going anywhere and I felt I'd understood well enough what there was to be gained.

It sounds like you see the difference between child-centered and simply letting them run riot for a few years before throwing them into 'proper' education.

A balance is what's needed. Not child'centered' or even 'child-led' but perhaps 'child-suggested'.

a balance is what's needed

Agree completely - alas common sense seems to be out of fashion. We are very child centrered here, and that by and large is a good thing (smacking is illegal, for example.) but it can too far, or be misunderstood I think.

As I'm sure you know much better than I do, so much of what's imposed in schools is politically driven rather than driven by what evidence/teaching professionals say what is best :/

I also think late to school doesn't serve all kids well. I was reading by two and I'd have been out of my wits with boredom in the Swedish school system.

I guess no one size fits all. I still think by and by scandi is good for little uns and the uk system better for older.

No one size fits all, that's for sure. Over here children that are ready for school sooner can start a year earlier (they can 'test' in) and ones that need extra time in preschool can stay for two years there before starting 1st grade.

Swedish education is quite different from Finnish after the early years, am I right in thinking they don't have as high requirements for teachers? (here you need at least a Master's degree and only the top 10% of students get into teaching courses as its very competitive)

I think parents should be able to choose when their child starts school.
Some are ready earlier than others and learning through play is much more fun than sitting in a classroom, especially if the child is stressed because they aren't ready or compatible with formal learning.

gillybeanz

But that's assuming parents know best. They frequently don't because a) they aren't objective b) there's no education requirement to be a parent.

Anatidae

I know it isn't what you meant but I love the way you equated child-centred with a lack of smacking

One of the wonderful things about independent schools is the lack of (a certain kind) of politics. Ignorings SATS tests, for example.

We have our own unique pressures but I would guess that we gain 3 months teaching by not thinking about SATS.

Not having SATS is likely a great boon to your school, the whole thing is a waste of time and causes far too much stress to the children (and the teachers I expect)

Having both summer and winter born DCs, my experience is the age difference and emotional maturity is often quite apparent at 4/5. It then seems to even out and is an issue again starting secondary school, where there are kids who have just turned 11 are suddenly an environment with much older kids. They are under enormous pressure to grow up and be cool long before they are able to cope with these things. For me if I had the choice I would have started my summer DC at age 5, not because of her learning ability but to allow her time and space to mature before going to secondary.

Natsku

Yes, yes and yes.

Bollocks from start to finish.

We literally gain 3 months of proper, actual education by not having them.

Ask any good teacher what they could do with 3 months extra teaching and their eyes would lght up!

I think the reporting pressures on early years and foundation are going to be part of the problem. I would like to hear about reception being much more relaxed and teachers having proper flexibility to guide children in the ways they are ready for.

I have been privileged to be able to have my children in independent schools, thus keeping them at arms length from government derived micromanagement. And not in London where the pressures on all types of schools sound frankly scary! What intrigues me is that my son, now in year 8 at a small prep school (ie his last year there), has been in a class with a high proportion of summer born boys all the way through, regardless of (or even increasing with) turnover (we are in a town where families move in and out commonly). In a class of 18, 8 have birthdays in July and August, and another 3 in May and June. That 8 includes 3 out of the 4 boys preparing to sit academic scholarships. I'd love to work out how much that is the school and how much just coincidence!

Grass Parents tend to think that their summer born children will cope less well in school - which can be a self-fulfilling prophecy - it's very much chicken and egg.

Children can cope less well for all kinds of reasons other than being a boy or being summer born - yet if they are a summer born boy it's blamed on that.

Can only go on my experience, my dc is 7 and started yr 3 she hasn't engaged with school and hasn't learned to read in the past two yrs despite my attempts. She just didn't want to and had no interest.

It would have been better for her in a system starting later so there would have been no negative impact on her.

She is clever and knows a lot of factual things and has a great vocabulary for her age but sit her down and try to do numbers and letters with her and she goes into her world and shuts down.

I'm hoping this year she will engage and she is already showing signs of doing so.

Urgh, SATS... don't get me started, utter waste of time and effort and huge stress on all concerned.

Testing and formal classrooms so young is kind of sad, they are children! They need to be running around in the forest poking stuff with sticks.

The child centred stuff here is interesting - I find swedes have a completely different way of dealing with small children than the uk. The more I see if it the more, generally I think it's a good idea.

Also a lot of it feeds into the gender neutrality here - it's hard to explain but by treating children as small humans rather than 'stereotypical little girl' or 'boy' and by protecting their right to play, they create an environment where one is respected and listened to young. I think it all feeds up through society .., not explaining myself well there, it's hard to put into words.

GRASS
And others.

RE SUMMER BORN BABIES