To file a complaint about the 111 advisor?

[holelottachange]

Called 111 as dd had pains in chest. I would have called the gp if it wasn't the weekend but thought it best to call them as dd was saying her chest hurt and I got into a panic about it. After giving away tons of info I wait for someone to call me back. 2 and a half hours later I get a call. By this point dd is acting completely normal jumping around and singing. I had since learnt she'd swallowed a sharp chip which I gathered was what had caused the pain. I explain this to the woman but she insists I take dd to a and e. Our nearest is 30 miles away and I can't drive. I also have a 18 month old with no one to watch him and it was getting dark. I told her this and she said I needed to get dd to a and e within the next hour or else she would be taking this further. When I questioned what she meant she said it was a safeguarding issue which she would take up if I didn't get dd to a and e within an hour. I told her my situation and that I couldn't afford a taxi for 30 miles there and 30 miles back. I told her dd was fine now but I would call gp first thing if she had any more pains. She wasn't taking none of this and demanded I gave her the name of my partner ( who is away working in Cornwall) and other personal details like the name of dd school etc. She made me feel so useless. She abruptly ended the call and I'm feeling a bit shell shocked. Should I make a complaint? Or am I in the wrong?

How would they know whether you had been to A&E though?

Is the system not linked so they can tell if been? Or they would have to call the hospital directly to confirm?

You don't call a bloody ambulance for someone who is coherent, conscious, a healthy colour, a healthy temperature and with normal breathing and pulse. All of which I'm sure the OPs dd had because she's only swallowed a sharp chip!!

My doctor phoned me an ambulance once when I had chest pain even though I explained it was likely due to me throwing up repeatedly from the novo virus. I was mortified when they turned up

I'm not sure why they exist either.

When I phoned them clearly very ill (but too scared to call 999 due to the hammering people get for calling 999 unnecessarily), I started off ok-ish but deteriorated on the phone

111 person refused to pass the call along to someone medically qualified or to place an automatic call to 999, until I'd answered the questions around my age & ethnicity... which would have be fine except after the 20 mins on the phone jumping through their hoops, my condition had deteriorated massively and I was no longer able to breathe well enough to speak and was slipping into unconsciousness.

As I faded out all I could hear were the ducet tones of the aggressive woman screaming down the phone they she would disconnect my call without any medical help unless I told her whether I was black or not! I remember trying to say cocasian over and over again and then 'help me' when she wouldn't listen... I drifted out knowing I was dying and she wouldn't help me...

Incredibly inappropriate given that A. The medical qs id answered fully were clearly saying 'aortic aneurism in progress' and B. The woman knew I was alone with a small child in the house.

Thank fuck for my friend, who I'd spoken to just before calling 111, who agreed i should err on side of caution and call 111 vs 999. Anyway, my friend panicked when I didn't pick up and called 999, who did spring into action when my symptoms were related to them. Thank fuck.

I'd have died otherwise and my little son would have found me dead when he woke in the night. Making me cry just thinking about it tbh.

I got in contact with the ambulance crew afterwards (to say thanks and give present), and one of them said never to call 111 for anything more than basic healthcare (e.g. UTI's where an out of hours gp can prescribe antibiotics etc ), as they fail at either end of the spectrum by telling people to go to A&E when it's clear to anyone except the computer that there's no need, and by not being able to function when someone is seriously ill / becomes seriously ill on the phone.

That's disgusting, very glad your friend stepped up!

Unfortunately, NHS direct were seen as a Labour initiative by the incoming Tory/Lib dem coalition government in 2010. It used to employ a large number of nurses as advisors, and the vast majority of calls were passed to them by call handlers after being triaged by the algorithmic software. At the time, nurse advisors required a lot of clinical experience before NHSD employed them (I was one; I worked there for 6 years). NHSD was flawed, but popular with the public.
The coalition government removed the majority of qualified staff, gave the call operators 6 weeks training and staffed the service with them instead.
Where a nurse had the experience and authority to override the (rather overexcitable) software and advise differently, usually adding home-care and worsening advise, the call operators just can't do this. I'm not surprised that they send so many ambulances or recommend A&E so often.

And that's how NHS direct became 111.

111 are trained to actually advise anyone that has a genuine problem to go to A&E.

How you can moan about this is ridiculous.

I called 111 when my 10mo had an infected willy. It had come out of nowhere and looked and smelt awful but wasn't causing him any discomfort. It was at a weekend so couldn't call the gp.

She was asking all the usual, irrelevant questions (have I dropped him from a height of more than 10 feet????) when she told me to wait by the door. I was literally asking her why when an ambulance turned up followed by an ambulance car!

It was all very embarrassing, they insisted on taking us in. We tried to file a complaint which got absolutely nowhere. This was in 2013 so maybe it's changed since then.

You can't have it both ways though can you. If you sound hysterical on the phone then all of a sudden say its fine then the other person is going to think its weird.

Then if they tell you it's ok you sue the arse off them.. Be thankful that your child is fine.

111 will have very stringent child protection procedures; it has to, when all communication is undertaken over the phone. Call handlers will be told to watch for inconsistent stories, but this seems to have been taken to quite an extreme.
While at NHS direct, we had to contact the receiving A&E to check that someone had attended after we'd advised them to (with suspected child protection issues, anyway).

Haven't read through whole thread.

Been in similar situation but from the other side.

As an ambulance technician my trusts policy was that I could NEVER discharge a child and therefore all children I attended MUST go to A&E.

Called by a Good samaritan/ busy body, to a minor low speed (zero damage) RTC where a few week old baby was in a car seat in one of the cars. Mother stated baby was asleep at the time and didn't even wake up with the bump, and that she did not want or need the ambulance services involvement with her child.

Control room insisted I must take this child to hospital. I ended up having a massive row over the phone with the dispatcher, pointing out that this would be kidnap since it was against the mothers wishes, and they tried to push the SS line with me. I asked them exactly what concerns they wanted me to put on the referral form, since everything the mother said I agreed with..."unnecessarily taking a very tiny baby to A&E to sit in a waiting room full of sick people would potentially cause harm when there was absolutely no logical reason for her baby to go there".

I ended up taking it further to the shift manager (I'm not one for backing down in the face of bullshit), and fortunately he was sensible and agreed with me and backed me up 100% (unfortunately he's now retired). Mum and baby didn't go to A&E and carried on their journey.

There is a lot of arse covering in the NHS which is a direct result of the complaints/ suing culture we have adopted from the US, ie we are dammed if we do dammed if we don't, and children make for very expensive payouts. However threatening parents with SS is bullying and coercion and therefore totally unacceptable!

The OP should complain, but make sure that when she does so she is very clear that the problem was with the policy and not the individual call taker, as soon as she says that she didn't like the call takers attitude the management will just turn this in to a stressful bollocking for the poor call taker and the complaint will not change anything.

Op have you heard anything?

I hate 111 any little thing and they have me racing to the hospital. Followed by a why have you bothered to come in from the doctors. So annoying

111 are trained to actually advise anyone that has a genuine problem to go to A&E.
But are they trained to recognise a genuine problem?

Depends on who you speak to. Call handlers have no medical training and follow a computer programme till they get an answer. If outcome isn't straight forward it goes to a clinical advisor who will be a nurse/Paramedic etc who obviously are trained.

Last time I called 111 it was about my 2 year old who had just consumed what turned out to be a very dangerous substance, they told me to give her milk & put her in bed. I googled and took her to A&E where she spent the next 24 hours under close observation with a multitude of tests to make sure nothing had got into her lungs.

Previous time they told me to call an ambulance when she needed to be seen by OOHs. They insisted I took her to A&E, who sent me to OOHs. (You have to go via 111 to get OOHs appointment here).

It's a pretty rubbish system, and is causing more problems.

Just to let you know OP, all NHS 111 telephone calls between Patient and the service are logged and sent to the Patients GP - so you don't need to make an appointment with your GP to get it 'on file' it gets added to the Patients record anyway.

Ahhh..reminds me of my call to 111 at 16 weeks pregnant and with hyperemesis, feeling severely dehydrated and wanting advice on what to do as I couldn't keep any water down. The call handler ran through all the usual questions including "Any pain in your chest?" to which I (stupidly) replied "I have terrible heartburn".....at which point he said he was sending an ambulance! I asked why and he insisted I said I had pain in my chest as well as having vomited all day. I argued that I'd said heartburn and he said "And that's in your chest!"....so the ambulance arrived, crew asked me about chest pain, I apologised and said I had told the call handler HEARTBURN, and they checked me over, agreed I was severely dehydrated and to me to A&E to get me put on a drip. So, they wouldn't send an ambulance for a dehydrated pregnant lady, but would send one for a case of heartburn....