Unreasonable

[Pankhurst09]

So I have titled this category "unreasonable". because I truly find a significant cohort of this site 'unreasonable' I quantify this from a few genuine posts resulting in what only could be described as bullying, and the 'admins' did little to discourage the bullyiing, in fact they seemed to encourage it. If the topic was not to the taste of the
group, then they circled like Vultures and threatened, and put down until the post was removed. Even when very legitimate
Concerns of bullying were highlighted they were ignored. I therefore ask, am I unreasonable to think that free speech and genuine progression in ideas and discussions is fruitless in a site like mumsnet?

Jaboker- you didn't offer anything constructive to another parent, you were aggressive and bullying. It seems to be accepted and encouraged on a site pretending to support parents, why don't you go to sleep and don't bother commenting? What did you get from that comment other than trying to make yourself feel big in a rather sad, aggressive way?

Erm there has been two deleted threads 🤔

Apologies. I meant that there are no deleted posts on the threads visible in your search history.
Your complaint therefore appears to centre on threads which have now been deleted.
If that is the case this thread will be deleted as well.

I agree that 100/200 posters telling an OP that they ABU can sometimes look like bullying if they're all saying it at once and not being gentle in the way they're going about it.

It's kind of excused in the same way abuse on Twitter's justified, that if you don't like what you hear, then don't fucking post.

But a lot of OPs aren't prepared for the onslaught, and it really can cut to the bone if they feel misunderstood. It's easy to take it personally.

However, and this is the reason I adore MN but don't post threads unless I'm really in need, if you genuinely want support, advice and even care, there are some cracking posters who are more then happy to give it freely to you.

I've read those posts and seen the support they give people at the end of their tether and contemplating jacking it all in.

AIBU is not MN, nor are the posters you've felt are bullies, it's so much more.

Maybe if you weren't coming at this with the impression that there are 'safe places' on in the internet you'd have more of a rounded view of MN?

Bullying: use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.

Did you do what everyone was telling you to do? No? Then you weren't bullied. As someone who HAS been bullied I find your flippant use of the term to be quite obnoxious.

Perhaps you mean "ganged up on", or "belittled" all of which I agree tends to happen in AIBU. So again, I doubt you were ACTUALLY bullied, I doubt you were forced to do something you didn't want to do. I DO think you were perhaps ganged up on and you didn't like it. Mob mentality isn't nice.

The good (and bad) thing about an online forum is the ability to truly express your opinion without fear of it impacting RL. Admitting you like Trump, are voting "no", voted for Brexit etc.

I repeat again: If you're feeling delicate post somewhere safer. You obviously are or you wouldn't have taken offense at the word delicate. I don't mean it in a sarcastic way, I mean if you're easily offended, or feeling fragile due to RL stressors, or need some positive reinforcement rather than negative... AIBU isn't for you.

YANBU to expect to be able to discuss things in any part of mumsnet and not encounter bullying.

However, mumsnet is an anonymous site and people are very happy to say quite shitty things because they know their identity is protected.

sykadelic after saying it is hard to know if the OP was bullied why did you say you doubt they were, or that admin just let it go?

I've seen loads of bullying on mumsnet in AIBU. And seen admin behave in the most inappropriate of ways but I am not going to go into details of specific cases. I am sure some admin do a sterling job but there are thousands of posts to deal with at any time so it must be hard to keep on top of it.

Your use of two types of posters, both of who are being unreasonable is really unusual too. Because actually there are multiple types of posters, those who are being unreasonable and know it, those who are being unreasonable and don't know it, those not unreasonable who do or do not know it, and those who actually subtly want to get information on the topic and posted in AIBU for traffic.

Using this definition of the verb bully "use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force them to do something.'

The 'superior' strength is people who keep on posting in an unpleasant manner even when the OP says this is not helping them (as mumsnet is for support) and/or the number of people who join in and say mean things if they feel the OP is wrong. It's kind of shaming. And the purpose seems to be to upset the OP or another poster and/or get them to change their view or admit they were 'wrong'.

Sorry OP that you have had threads deleted that were unhelpful. There are a lot of crazy people out there but I have also seen threads that have been so very supportive of people in real need.

Just always be ready to step away any time things get heated and not helpful, OP. In fact an OP not returning to a thread when things have got heated seems to be deadly frustrating for some and may well be the best way to end things when you feel that the thread has not been helpful.

sykadelic it is a little bit Twilight zone that we appear to have both Googled the very 'bully' at the same moment!

However, bullying does not require someone to do what the bullies want in order for the act (of attempting to get the target to do it) to be labelled bullying.

It is truly awful when anyone is bullied and of course some forms of bullying will be much worse than others.

I'm no sure everyone says what they really think, just because it is anonymous, some do.

But I do agree with you AIBU is not for everyone and IMHO should be used with caution.

Sorry, typo "...those not reasonable who do or do not know it"

'Just always be ready to step away any time things get heated and not helpful, OP'

Not returning to a thread, or even to a website, you feel is unhelpful and making you feel worse than you already did, is the most sensible/rational advice you can get.

It's also impossible to do

You can see the poor OP getting wound up getting mostly YABUs and know they're better off hiding the thread, but I've yet to see a dramatic storming off saying they'll never post again without them coming back to put someone else straight (usually for not RTFT).

In a way I kind of prefer it that way, I don't like the thought of someone going away beaten down by the answer they got. Coming back to post another day has always got to be good.

AgentZigzag I am living proof it is possible!

The best way to do it is to say "I won;t check for an hour" or whatever, and by the end of the hour (afternoon, whatever) you find the compulsion to 'Make others see your point' or whatever has gone. It is the repeatedly going back that adds the stress!

" Coming back to post another day has always got to be good." yes, another day when things are calmer is good. But I also hate seeing an OP or another poster keep coming back only to get the same shitty treatment.

I think the line from Pride and Prejudice is a good one.

"I am only resolved to act in that manner, which will, in my own opinion, constitute my happiness, without reference to you, or to any person so wholly unconnected with me.''

I understand where you're coming from. However there are lots of posts as pp mentioned, where the poster starts getting shirty because they expected everyone to agree with them. I think that puts everyone on the defensive, and that can be carried on into other posts.

I have also seen plenty of posters, who appear genuinely in need, being ripped to shreds and laughed at. That is bullying. I don't see the need to post 'yes, YABU' when 20 people have already said it and explained why. But posters can't resist to wade in, and it spirals into pages of everyone saying the same thing and woe betide anyone who disagrees.

If you post on the relevant topics you will receive a more helpful response. Just the way it is unfortunately.

OP - were you the oposter who posted a poem as part of her post?

If so, my recollection of what happened was that the OP posted about a difficult situation and gained a lot of help and advice from sympathetic posters and was then mobbed by a bunch with an agenda and who (it seems) never ever see anything associated with Issue X anything other than their own way. They accused the OP of an 'ism' and would not let up until the thread got really nasty and it was pulled. Towards the end someone who was sympathetic to the OP made a statement to the effect that the whole take-down was orchestrated by the mobbers who deliberately provoked over a sensitive issue and then claimed to be the victims.

It was sad if this happened because good discussion over a sensitive but real issue was stymied.

Italian very good points, very well put, Agent I know, so hard to step away. Yet, unfortunately yes. I struggle to understand why it is ever ok to gang up/bully/belittle someone online, in person, wherever, All have negative effects. We all have a responsibility.

Capt, you are absolutely right and I've experienced the "wading in" that's the thing with bullying "just the way it is" it shouldn't be the way it is. We shouldn't have to be subjected to that by anyone never mind other mums/parents.

This site is not about free speech.

It is about directing people to ads which are what puts pennies in the meter.

Anything that increases traffic, and that includes threads with high levels of input, as long as it keeps MN out of the courts, is seen as a positive. Esp if the thread gets into the DM and gets them free publicity.

The issue is that many posters claim bullying when its actually just someone disagreeing. That why people, who havent seen your threads, want to know some detail. So they can judge the bullying.

I dont know the threads you are reffering to. I do know, however, that some groups encourage people to join sites like mumsnets to goad people who have views they dont like.

Fathers 4 justice is one.

I cant comment on what MN did or didnt do because i didnt see the thread. But i usually find them quite fair.

Hi Pankhurst,

We've had a few reports about this thread and thought we'd better take a look.

We're sorry that you feel you've been bullied, and are especially sorry that you feel we at MNHQ did little to discourage the bullying. However, we've taken a look at your most recent thread and can see only one post that you reported to us; soon after this you sent a request that we take the whole thread down, which we fairly quickly did.

We can see one other thread from a year ago which we also deleted. Here's what we posted on the thread back then, which we feel bears repeating here -

We think we're quite a nice bunch, on the whole, and we're sorry if you feel differently, Pankhurst. We work pretty hard to make the site a friendly and decent place for folks to post, and most people think we strike the right balance (most of the time!)

In our defence, you haven't actually reported any posts on this or the other thread. If you feel that someone has breached our Talk Guidelines then please drop us a report so we can take a look. We're a post-moderated site and there are thousands of threads running at any time, so unless we receive a report about a particular post or a thread, the chances are we won't have seen it.

We do ask our members to use the same courtesy when posting messages on Talk that they would use when speaking to someone face to face, and generally speaking, most people are happy to comply.

As other posters have pointed out, AIBU does tend to be the topic that provokes the more harsh responses, so it might be an idea to post elsewhere on the site.

Above all, please report any posts which you feel are crossing the line - we've gone back to the good old days and are doing our level best to reply to every report.

Thanks Dawnsmumsnet, I reported bullying twice on the last thread, something I didn't do originally as I was a 'fish out of water' and quite shocked by what I found when I posted genuine questions to other parents. There was no response or subsequent response when I asked for the post to be deleted despite the fact I was already feeling under stress at this point and felt attacked and overwhelmed at an already difficult time- as I had stated in my original post. "We think we are quite a nice bunch" that's great and I am pleased you do l, but there is undoubtedly a rather dark side to this site that is either tolerated, supported or encouraged and that needs to be addressed.

Taken from Psychology Today;

1. Verbal bullying. Threats; shaming; hostile teasing; insults; constant negative judgment and criticism; or racist, sexist, or homophobic language.

“The scars from mental cruelty can be as deep and long-lasting as wounds from punches or slaps but are often not as obvious.” ―Lundy Bancroft

1. Passive-aggressive or covert bullying. This is a less frequently mentioned form of bullying, but in some ways it's the most insidious. With many bullies, you can see them coming because they are quick to make their intimidating presence known. A passive-aggressive or covert bully, however, behaves appropriately on the surface, but takes you down with subtlety.

Examples of passive-aggressive and covert bullying include negative gossip, negative joking at someone’s expense, sarcasm, condescending eye contact, facial expression or gestures, mimicking to ridicule, deliberately causing embarrassment and insecurity, the invisible treatment, social exclusion, professional isolation, and deliberately sabotaging someone’s well-being, happiness, and success.

"Behind the smile, a hidden knife!" ―Ancient Chinese proverb describing passive-aggressive behavior

1. Cyber bullying. Many types of tangible, verbal, and passive-aggressive behavior mentioned above can be conveyed online via social media, texting, video, email, on-line discussion, and other digital formats. Identity theft is also a form of cyber bullying.

“Cyber bullies…do not need direct physical access to their victims to do unimaginable harm.” ―Anna Maria Chavez

Regardless of "AIBU does tend to be the topic that provokes the most harsh responses"

As a parent, as a mum, I very much feel you have a responsibility, as do we all to say no to bullying, to not encourage bad behaviour, verbal assaults, or anything else that WOULD be seen to be bullying behaviour in 'real' life. Yes, we cannot police the internet, but a site that advertises itself as a safe place for parental discussion and support? At least re name yourself, "mumsslammer" or "makefunofmums" at least then we know what to expect.

I am shocked, no matter how much you protest or defend, or 'stamp your feet' about being "a nice bunch" (that statement in itself is inciting to bullying as it is like a call to rally the troops)

I have learned a lesson, I am sure your "nice bunch" will happily jump in and reinforce that.

As a mother of girls I will never tolerate bullying, in the actual playground or the cyber one. Have some flowers

Bullying? Come on, this is mumsnet not the playground

Alternative that is a very interesting point and also worrying.

Tbb- really? I agree it is not the playground. We all have a collective responsibility? Do we not?

But not every internet site can be expected to be all things to everybody. This is public and there is visible moderation. This isn't the playground. Ultimately, no, there's no collective responsibility. It's MN's responsibility. It's nice if everyone is nice. But there are many trolls and people with an agenda who aren't interested in nice. Anonymity breeds mischief.

Grockle, "anonymity breeds mischief" NO, it's clearly more than mischief, it's bullying. Let's address the actual issue.

You've been advised to report any posts you deem unacceptable so that they can be considered and appropriate action taken.

If you see examples of bullying I don't see why you can't simply report those specific examples rather than continuing to complain about some unspecified examples of what you deem to be bullying but no one else can judge or "address".
Your response to Dawn is pretty unpleasant in my view, especially the sneering about foot stamping and the mocking of the comment "nice bunch".

Pankhurst, I'd agree with Sooty. It's really quite simple:

1. Don't post in AIBU.
2. Report any specific posts you interpret as bullying.

MN is a huge site and, as such, has a large range of posters. Find an area that suits you. AIBU is not that area if you cannot tolerate any kind of vigorous debate or disagreement. And that's okay - just find another area of MN.