That it's probably not a good thing to keep telling people that drinking in pregnancy

[minifingerz]

... is unlikely to have harmed a baby, as long as the mum isn't drinking at very high levels, and as long as she stops drinking when she knows she's pregnant.

What's got me thinking about this was listening to a true crime podcast where they had a paediatrician talking about fatal alcohol syndrome, and that made me reflect on a thread I read on here a few weeks ago.

On the thread a few weeks ago a poster said that she hadn't discovered her pregnancy until she was 3 months+ (I think) and that she'd drunk quite a lot before knowing. Most of the rest of the posters reassured her that they had also drunk during early pregnancy and that their children were fine. One poster said her obstetrician had said he'd only seen one case of FAS in his career and that it was very rare.

My understanding of FAS is that it's a spectrum disorder, and that children's development can be negatively affected at lower levels of consumption, and that fetal alcohol spectrum disorders can be quite difficult to diagnose because a child can have sustained developmental damage without having the typical features of FAS (short nose, small eye sockets, flat filtrum).

I know if I'd been drinking in pregnancy I'd want to be told it didn't matter, but then I worry that the message that only heavy drinking may harm a baby, and that if the baby is harmed it's always obvious, isn't necessarily a good one to have out there in a culture where heavy drinking among young women is pretty prevalent. Apparently FASD is often misdiagnosed as in older children or adults as ADHD or ASD.

I'm saying all this by the way as someone who didn't stop drinking during any of my pregnancies, though I always drank at a very low level (i.e., 1 or 2 units once or twice a week, as OK'd by my GP at the time). If I'd known then what I know now I don't think I would have drunk at all.

I can see where you're coming from but the fact is that the 'official line' from the medical experts is still not to drink. All the examples you have given have been as you say given as reassurance. I don't think anyone would see this as 'the advice' and believe that it 'OK's drinking during pregnancy.

What do you know now that you didn't know then? There is absolutely no evidence at all that drinking at the level you describe has any effect on a child's development - in fact what scant evidence there is actually shows that children of mothers who drank at low levels outperform others. (Probably due to other confounding factors but still.)

I don't really understand your point/question.

We all know that alcohol isn't good for your health.

I don't see why we should be having all those pseudo-concerned discussions about what women should or shouldn't do with our bodies all the fucking time.
In a world where such discussions can, very realistically, lead to women's bodily autonomy being taken away even MORE than it already is ... I really don't want to talk about it.
(And especially not with regard to drinking in early pregnancy. What will be next? Will I have to provide proof that I have a contraceptive implant (oh joy, the lovely side effects!) just so that I'll be allowed to buy alcohol?

Fight for women's bodily autonomy to be enshrined as unalienable human right in every country on the planet.

Then we can talk about how a woman exerting her inalienable right to bodily autonomy might affect a fetus.

But not before.

But minifingerz, you're not exactly known for being the most, er, measured about this type of thing are you? Are you moving on from one bottle of formula before the age of 2 will lead to teenage pregnancy, jail, being sectioned and a dose of cat AIDS to berating mothers about booze now?

You do seem to be overly invested in other mothers bodily choices. It's almost like you want them to beat themselves up?

The message that women should drink anything at all even before they know (which is the official line) has led to some women wanting to abort perfectly healthy babies that they believe have been 'damaged'. So there's a lovely unintended consequence of demonising drink.

There's no evidence that small amounts of alcohol causes any damage. No one has ever been diagnosed with FAS from small amounts of maternal drinking.

The risks of drinking are not consistently the same throughout pregnancy. Drinking very early on before the placenta has formed formed for example increases risk of miscarriage, but not fas.

Sorry, 'should' in my first sentence should read 'shouldnt'

What's your suggestion OP?

That we stop women of childbearing age drinking at all, in case they should unknowingly fall pregnant?

That we tell concerned pregnant women that they may have harmed their unborn child unknowingly and should worry about it for the next 8 months?

That we tell women how to behave and what to put into their own bodies based on inconclusive evidence and limited scientific knowledge?

I don't really understand the aim of your post.

it's probably not a good thing to keep telling people that drinking in pregnancy... is unlikely to have harmed a baby, as long as the mum isn't drinking at very high levels, and as long as she stops drinking when she knows she's pregnant

But that's true. Why is it not a good thing to tell women the truth? Would you prefer that women who did indeed stop once they knew they were pregnant and are highly unlikely to have caused any problems for their baby were instead terrified and told a load of untruths?

In any case, the nhs info is very clear that "If a woman drinks alcohol during pregnancy, she risks damaging her baby... Foetal alcohol syndrome is completely avoidable if you don't drink alcohol while you're pregnant.
The risk is higher the more you drink, although there's no proven "safe" level of alcohol in pregnancy. Not drinking at all is the safest approach." source.

All the official advice in this country is that there is no known safe level of alcohol in this country so it's better to abstain completely. At the same there's never been a case of FAS diagnosed in a child of a mother that drank in moderation.
What else do you want OP? That we start shaming mother's who found out about pregnancy late or mother's (like me) who had a glass of champagne at a wedding and the odd small beer while pregnant.
I'm happy with my choices, do you think I shouldn't be?

"is unlikely to have harmed a baby"

That's what people say but my understanding is that there is no safe level of consumption - i.e. that drinking ALWAYS harms the developing fetus. Not being able to identify or measure harm doesn't mean something isn't harmful. You'd be very unwilling to allow someone to smoke near your child now and then on the basis that doing this is very unlikely to end with your child developing a diagnosable disorder would you?

I've had a complete turn around in my attitude to this since understanding it better. I used to think that the lack of evidence of harm from moderate drinking was the same as evidence that small amounts of alcohol aren't harmful to the fetus. Now I know they are and if I could do my pregnancies again I wouldn't drink at all, just like I wouldn't deliberately consume any other teratogen while carrying a baby.

I think we should stop spreading the message that it probably doesn't matter if you drink in pregnancy as long as you're not drinking heavily.

But what about women who aren't actively TTC? Many women have surprise pregnancies and have drunk during the first month or two.

Or should we move on to forgetting female bodily autonomy and say that any woman of potential childbearing age shouldn't have alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, just in case?

The scientist in me can't resist....

"There's no known level of safe consumption" (this is the accurate statement based on all research to date) is very, very different to the statement "drinking always harms the developing foetus". I say this as someone who is 35 weeks pregnant and apart from one glass of prosecco very recently at a celebration I haven't consumed alcohol during pregnancy. However, whatever my personal choice has been I don't think it's helpful to say things like "drinking always harms the foetus" when this is not what research says at all.

The more accurate finding is that drinking beyond a certain amount, at a certain stage of pregnancy (i.e. First trimester) has been linked to increased likelihood of certain defects/syndromes. (I just struggle with some people's desires to paint situations as completely dichotomous when the world is actually more grey than black/white!)

EXACTLY mummabubs

I found out very late into pregnancy that i was pregnant. I was a university student at the time so you can imagine how heavily I drank. Thankfully, my DS is absolutely fine and was not affected at all. However I am aware that it could have been very different and that I was lucky. Should I fall pregnant again I would probably not touch a drop, because that is the official advice. But as you say, it is a many many grey scaled world, not a dichotomy.

I fail to see what the OP wants us to do, all the official advice advises abstaining from drinking alcohol. The examples of spreading the message that it probably doesn't matter which the OP has given or implied, are all in the context of calming and panicky pregnant woman. So what do you want OP? should we vilify and berate the already panicked guilt-ridden and concerned mother? OR as a PP has said should we simply ban all women of child bearing age from consuming any alcohol ever on the off chance that they might get pregnant?

I remember getting rather drunk several times when I was pregnant (surprise pregnancy at 40) so didn't know at that point).
In fact, when I was about 5 weeks gone I was on a work conference and each of the 5 nights involved much wine until the small hours. I found out 4 weeks later I was nearly 10 weeks pregnant.
I was mortified.

That's what people say but my understanding is that there is no safe level of consumption - i.e. that drinking ALWAYS harms the developing fetus

Your understanding is quite wrong.

my understanding is that there is no safe level of consumption - i.e. that drinking ALWAYS harms the developing fetus

Your understanding is wrong.

I am fucking sick to death of society telling pregnant women what they should or should not be doing.

Op your post makes no sense aha if I want to be rude mind your business

drinking always harms the foetus

Don't be so bloody silly

Vestal, I couldn't agree more. However, since the OP doesn't believe in bodily autonomy for women, you're wasting your breath.

I agree is shouldn't be normalised to drink any amount during pregnancy. I know a 3 year old who has physical, emotional and behavioural symptoms from foetal alcohol syndrome (mum was an alcoholic and drank every single day). I also know teens/children and adults who now have behaviour issues and it has been down to their mothers drinking 'small amounts' during pregnancy. It doesn't matter whether you drink one glass of wkd. If you know that you are or there is a chance you could be pregnant, you should not drink.

Totally agree with Mummabubs - your understanding is wrong.... not knowing a safe level does not equal all levels are unsafe!!

I also know teens/children and adults who now have behaviour issues and it has been down to their mothers drinking 'small amounts' during pregnancy

Has this link been proven?

prosecco you don't though do you unless you have discoverd new evidence that modern scientists have yet to find. Have you published your research?

yawn

simple fact is that many of our parents drank and smoke when pregnant- and more so during the pre and post WW2 years

Its clearly NOT great but not why, when we know its not ideal, this keeps on coming up again and again I have no idea!

@Ecureuil yes. I know three separate people, 2 males and 1 female who have behaviours issues and have been medically assessed and have been diagnosed with FAS. Not ADHD or ADD. It is FAS that they have been diagnosed with. It happens, even when you drink little. But I do also agree that it does not affect every baby.