To ask what's better re PhD vs job and future DC plans?

[PixieChemist]

So I'm thinking of doing a PhD and considering the impact this will have on other plans. DP and I would like to have DC in the next few years (or try at least!) and in an ideal world I'd like to take some time out to be with them in their early years. So I'm wondering, as an employer what looks better; having a years industrial experience plus a PhD behind me, or having 5 years industrial experience? Either way there would be a gap in my employment / study history after these things but I'm just not sure which would put me in a better position. What do you think is better in your experience/ opinion? Also as you can probably tell from my username I'm in the chemical industry and it would be a chemistry PhD.

Anyone?

I wish I could give you advice. I just finished a PhD in Economics, and find that it helps me find jobs in academia and beyond. But I'm completely unaware of the job market for Chemistry PhDs. Unrelated, a friend of mine did his in Engineering and found more than enough jobs in industry. It just depends what you do your PhD in as well.

I think if I went straight from the PhD to a job I'd have opened up more career possibilities. But then I have no idea if it would help if I took a few years off between finishing my PhD and then looking for a job.

I employ a lot of engineering and computer science people within our company - some have PhD's, most don't.

Basically if your PhD was recent and you were going into industrial research, or a role directly relevant to your PhD it may open doors. In general though 5 years experience would easily trump it. I can think of some post-grad subjects I would really like to get hold of now, but in two years time the same PhD would hold no sway and I'd look for someone whose actually practised it.

However, if your path is academia then the PhD is almost mandatory.

Would suggest you will very unlikely ever get a chance to do it later in life - so if you have a passion, it might just be worth doing it because you want to.

Hope that helps.

It is a long time since I did my PhD but there were a few posts around where you could do a PhD whilst being gainfully employed so the best of both worlds. If you want to end up in industry eventually then definitely do some work experience there and sooner rather than later as it can be harder to make the transition if you stay too long in academia. I probably worked the longest hours of any time whilst I did my PhD so would definitely advise completing this before children.

Can you do a PhD co-funded by industry and one of the research councils - sounds similar to what OneInEight is suggesting (I think they used to be called CASE studentships in my field)?

I would think that talking to people in your specific field would be much more use than the generalised advice you're likely to get here.

Okay so my "thinking about PhD" Is actually I've been offered one co-funded by industry and RC (sort of like CASE) and I'm debating what's actually going to be better for me long term. I don't want to go into academia (I think, anyway) but if I were to do the PhD I'd rather go back into industry afterwards.

Not my subject, but I'm afraid I find it difficult to imagine a PhD followed by some years as SAHM being any use for getting a job afterwards - a PhD really needs to be followed up by experience or publications that demonstrate you can't only work with your supervisor, and your knowledge being out of date by a few years would be a liability in many contexts. So I'd expect the job to be a better bet.

On the positive side, you absolutely can do a PhD later if you want to. In my experience universities love mature applicants, especially if they've been working in a related field. The reason we don't often get them is that it's hard for them to take the financial step backwards - I've lost track of how many people I've talked to who have been keen until they really think about what it would do to their lifestyle to lose the professional salary they're now used to spending! So if you may want to do this, save hard, and avoid e.g. taking on a mortgage you can barely afford. If you can swing it, professional experience followed by a PhD has great CV potential.

bridget I would but I find people are totally against DC if doing the PhD route, it's like the PhD takes over your life and the only PhD students I know want to go into academia. I've had a chat with my current line manager and he's in two minds what he'd rather from an employee who's taken a gap.

(update while I was typing, but your later post doesn't change my advice)

Could you not aim to take maternity leave part way through the PhD and then you would be going straight from the PhD to work?

PhDs are tough and having one with DC would be tough but people do it and doing pretty much any job with young DC is pretty tough!

That's really good advice ScottishProf

I think I'm trying to make it work in my head re doing it now but it really doesn't does it... i already have the issue of losing my professional salary by doing it, even after just a years experience I'm on significantly more money than PhD stipend so I can't imagine how difficult it would be in say 5 years time. That said, if I were a SAHM for a while and then applied for a PhD, the stipend would be much more than SAHM.

But... If I pulled out of this PhD would I even be offered the opportunity in the future?

That would sort of work Karak except we want at least 2 DC so even if I took maternity during PhD for DC1 I'd still then be SAHM afterwards for DC2. I don't think I'd like to have one and then go straight back to PhD full time as I'd want to be home with them at least part time.

I don't know if I agree that DC are incompatible with a PhD. I'm currently pregnant and about to go off on mat leave, and am midway through 3 year RC funded PhD. I get 6 mos paid and upto 6 mos unpaid mat leave as standard from RC. In many ways the PhD is much more compatible with pregnancy I think. I've been quite sick with morning sickness, tiredness, etc and have rescheduled a lot of my work to fit around it. And I don't feel any qualms about taking the time off - can always plan to do some writing etc during mat leave if I feel I can manage it. I think not having other people's work directly impacted by my mat leave or pregnancy actually makes everyone overall more supportive!
But in my institute with say a 100 PhD students passing through in the past 6-7 years there has been exactly 1 student who started a family during the PhD.. and I'll hopefully be the 2nd. So it's not typical, but actually not that bad!

And if it helps I plan to go back part time post mat leave, and hopefully try for DC2 when finishing up / during postdoc. I don't plan to be a full time SAHM but work part time at least - then there's not explicit gaps in your career.

The financial aspect of it is tricky - But I did give up a professional salary to go onto a stipend. Our thinking was that we spend 5-6 years building our family + me getting a PHD and hopefully later on it'll also pay off financially etc. But who knows eh - best laid plans.

That all sounds really positive Newbie I'm glad everyone is supportive of you and you're finding it a positive experience. Will this be your first baby? How did you find it giving up your professional salary?

So a quick Google search of jobs specifically related to my PhD area only brings up other PhD studentships and post docs. There is one industrial job but that's it. So maybe this route isn't the right one for me?

What can't you do in your current career without a PhD?

If your future career path is going to be curtailed without a PhD then I would do it. If it's not, then I wouldn't.

There's never a good time to have kids.

I'm an ex academic now in industry - I've had my first at 36 when I was in a good position salary wise. But I've seen others do kids with a PhD. And it worked for them.

Whatever you do keep those industry connections.

Pixie are you planning to go into the pharma industry? Is it med chem or process development? I was a process development chemist in fine chems/pharma for about 10 years and I did a PhD and one postdoc.

First off I would note that the UK market for chemists has been a bit crap in the last few years owing to the downsizing in the pharma industry - Novartis closed their site in Horsham, GSK got rid of a couple of sites and has had redundancies in the ones it's kept. AZ have been getting rid of people off and on, and they keep relocating people all over the place. Pfizer is basically gone in the UK IIRC.

In light of all that, but I would have said it before anyway: don't go for the PhD if your main concern is employability in industry. Our department had a lot harder time recruiting good graduates than good PhDs, and there were plenty of PhDs working in "industrial postdocs"/short term contracts because they couldn't find anything else.
As above posters have said, you're usually expected to postdoc after a PhD, and that's a year or two or three, temporary contracts, in far flung places. Fun and interesting, but not great if you want to settle down.
If you go into the chemical industry as a graduate it may hold back your career progression a little but it's perfectly possible to get into management with a degree only, particularly if you're interested in moving sideways into regulatory or pilot plant or manufacturing.

Are you currently working in the chemical industry? As in, you have a permanent job? I would hang onto that like a limpet if I were you, because they are not all that easy to come by. If you're with a good employer, you'll get the year's maternity leave and you'll probably be able to go part time afterwards. I knew people who worked 3 days a week - that's still you spending the majority of your days with your DC.

Another factor against PhD (I'm assuming you're a lab based chemist) is that the safety standards won't be as good as they are in industry, IME. I was pregnant while working in the lab and I had no worries that I was going to get exposed to anything dodgy. In academia not so much care is taken.

If you want to PM me I'll tell you the whole details and what companies I worked for and stuff

If you're in industry and you're planning to go back to industry I would only do a PhD if there are very clear long-term career benefits to having a PhD. Otherwise I think you'll regret putting your career on hold for not much gain other than the chance to call yourself Dr.

(I should add that if you decide in 5, 10, 20 years time that you do want to do a PhD I doubt it will be held against you that your turned down this opportunity.)

Yes this will be our first, so I know I am only speculating, but as so many others have said it's hard to plan a perfect time to have kids.

On giving up a professional salary : I'll be honest, my partner is still in a well paying professional job so it hasn't had a dramatic impact on our finances. Although some things would be easier with 2 full salaries coming in of course we do manage. Not everyone is as lucky and it can make a big difference to your outlook. It can also be little things : when you do a PhD in your 20s everyone around you is similarly starting up tbeir careers so it doesn't feel like you're falling behind. Now in my mid thirties almost everyone we socialise with is able to afford holidays, private schooling in some cases, much larger mortgages. We are obviously happy with our decision, but it does mean some significant sacrifices and esp sacrifices that aren't about "I can't afford a fancy meal" but "I can't afford this life choice for my children and is that selfish and will it ruin their lives". It's hard and definitely something to make your peace with before you make the decision!

Yeah - my industry pays lip service to phds but in reality the people in higher positions have mainly first degrees.

Agree completely with the safety aspect too - industry is a safer place to be. I actually enforced SOPs in my academic lab and was mocked for it, the whole attitude of academia is pretty lax when it comes to safety.

My PhD was fun, but it hasn't really benefitted me in any career or financial sense.

Hang on to your job as a graduate chemist.
Otherwise you'll end up as a lab technician.
There are few jobs outside academia for chemists. I am one - I retrained.
I worked with one having done a doctorate. Ended up working as a HCA due to no jobs.

It's not true that kids and a PhD are incompatible. I had two while doing my PhD - it actually worked out better in some ways doing it like that although it was hard at the time. I think you are probably overthinking it as there are too many unknowns. If you have the opportunity now, go for it!