To ask what's better re PhD vs job and future DC plans?

[PixieChemist]

So I'm thinking of doing a PhD and considering the impact this will have on other plans. DP and I would like to have DC in the next few years (or try at least!) and in an ideal world I'd like to take some time out to be with them in their early years. So I'm wondering, as an employer what looks better; having a years industrial experience plus a PhD behind me, or having 5 years industrial experience? Either way there would be a gap in my employment / study history after these things but I'm just not sure which would put me in a better position. What do you think is better in your experience/ opinion? Also as you can probably tell from my username I'm in the chemical industry and it would be a chemistry PhD.

I've just finished my Ph.D, I started when my youngest was 5 and starting school. I treated it like a 9-5 job. My experience was definitely different to those who were younger and didn't have commitments outwith the Ph.D, I was much less involved in my department and really just put my head down and got on with it!

I'm now working outside academia but the doctorate definitely helped me get the job as it's very topical for my field. In a few years time though it won't be and probably wouldn't be much of a selling point - loads of people have Ph.Ds now, they are not the rarity they used to.

A Ph.D is hard work and it really takes over your life, the drop out rate is quite high as well. You really have to want to do it and be very committed.

Do you really want to do a PhD? Is a burning desire to know more about your topic and find the answers driving you?

If yes, then think seriously about the PhD and bear in mind what the others are saying here.

If not, then just don't do a PhD. They're not the be all and end all of qualifications and you can go back to them later: I literally just did an induction for a room full of returning PhD students. But you've got to really want to know the things a PhD will let you explore.

Something to consider is: if you take maternity leave and go back part-time to PhD, that is either incredibly obvious on your CV or it looks like you were really slow to finish, which is an issue for employers. If you take a year maternity leave from a job on industry, it's more or less invisible- you say: employed with x 2017-2021 and it doesn't matter if 18-19 you were on maternity leave.

The worst option would be PhD, gap, then try to return to workforce- unless the PhD is recent, you run the risk of making it seem obsolete and irrelevant.

I know one person who is still finishing up after returning to part-time PhD work after maternity. It was really hard- I guess the difference is if it's lab-based it's less isolating, but in a pure research subject, self-motivating on broken sleep when trying to navigate nursery drop offs looked really, really difficult. At least in work there is a team around you and a more hands-on boss rather than a supervisor you see every few months. But I chose not-PhD, and from a non-scientific background, which I know is v different.

Thanks all for your advice. I can't remember who asked but I'm currently working in manufacturing.

I work in a field where PhDs are highly desirable, but I don't have one myself. It took me ages to break in to the field, but now I'm there, not having a PhD has never held me back, and I have progressed at the same rate as my PhD peers. I suspect I will hit a glass ceiling one day, but I'm not that ambitious and it doesn't matter to me. Maybe your field is similar, in which case whether you judge a PhD to be worth it is up to your own preferences

Fwiw, I would not judge a potential applicant on whether they have a PhD or not. I'm far more interested in their first degree, and the extent of their experience, and how well they demonstrate their skills at interview.

Good luck!

I work in biotech (but also manufacturing) and am involved with recruiting. Extrapolating into the world of chemistry, I would think very hard about the PhD. In a research environment they open doors, but in an industrial manufacturing environment they are a lot less important than experience. I would always go for someone who had 3-4 years of industry experience behind them than a fresh PhD (all other factors being equal of course!).

Appalachian that's a really good point about gaps with maternity.

I think overall my job is probably a better option, of course the obvious is more pay but also they're incredibly flexible. I've had a chat with one of the managers, (this thread sparked off the chat tbh and lots of people getting pregnant recently so we chatted about it from that perspective) who's said he's more than willing for his employees to go part time or flexible hours for the vast majority of the time. Of course there are exceptions where one is needed more than 9 til 5 one or two days but that would be a rarity.

I don't know if this is a rarity in the chemical manufacturing industry?

I wasn't aware that Novartis closed down, was that recent? Honestly there are naff all chemistry jobs where I live so maybe I am better off holding onto this job.

Nothing to do with chemistry but I'd guess a third of my employees / peers have a PhD.

Whilst it obviously demonstrates a high level of academic ability and intelligence, I would usually look at 5 years of experience more favourably. To be more specific, 5 well spent years where they've been noticed by their employer as particularly able in whatever field they're employed in.

I have a PhD but it was beneficial because I worked in academia for a few years before stepping sideways (down) into fields where I was working alongside people with Masters but more experience.

Where I am now (closer to retirement than anything else), I've caught up with those who 'worked' instead of staying at university but my PhD is only beneficial when I make a point of using my title in a childish and shitty email reply (where I list other letters too).

Nothing to do with chemistry but I'd guess a third of my employees / peers have a PhD.

Whilst it obviously demonstrates a high level of academic ability and intelligence, I would usually look at 5 years of experience more favourably. To be more specific, 5 well spent years where they've been noticed by their employer as particularly able in whatever field they're employed in.

I have a PhD but it was beneficial because I worked in academia for a few years before stepping sideways (down) into fields where I was working alongside people with Masters but more experience.

Where I am now (closer to retirement than anything else), I've caught up with those who 'worked' instead of staying at university but my PhD is only beneficial when I make a point of using my title in a childish and shitty email reply (where I list other letters too).

Well as a PhD in chemistry and a mum of 2 I have to ask how old you are unless I missed that from your post OP? I would not take on a PhD with young children so I would get the PhD done before considering getting pregnant (at least to write up stage) . I worked in the corporate research of a big company in the UK and it was always very clear that the only way to the top was with those little magical letters. No PhD no promotion (which was incredibly unfair to the people who had been there 20 years and had more knowledge than all of us newly arrived). If you want to do research them it is a must and maybe also if you aspire to management. Which ever way you look at it do it for yourself though... Is long and can be quite solitary... Good luck !

Haha yes those letters can come in handy baby.

drk leaving having DC until after the PhD would still lead to my issue of a gap between PhD and employment. That's really harsh re no PhD no promotion

You mean the maternity gap right? Pretty much why I asked you how old you are. I am early 40s and really wish I had had kids earlier. I have plenty of friends with PhD and 2+ kids who are back at work PT now the babies are not babies anymore. Most went back after babe 1 after a reasonable time and took another break after babe 2. I did not go back after babe 1 now 5 and with a 1 yo to look after I feel that my chances of going back to work are slim in the near future. R+D is sadly an area where one had to stay up to date. I hope you are much younger than me with energy and a wish for a career as well as children ;)

Oops sorry drk thought I'd answered that. I'm late twenties DP is mid thirties. Can one call it a maternity gap if DC is 2?

Yes Novartis Horsham closed down in 2014. I think they have some regulatory and bio stuff still going in London.

I think flexible working can be difficult in manufacturing because of shift work - are you on shifts just now? It sounds like you have an excellent setup where you are.

but my PhD is only beneficial when I make a point of using my title in a childish and shitty email reply (where I list other letters too).

Ahhh... I'm not the only one then :)

Op I think you need to have a look through your company directory - look at people in jobs/career paths you want to go into. How many have phds? Do the same for other companies.

At risk of sounding like a patronising twat you're still young - you have time on your side. It's a difficult descision to make. In many ways I'm glad I was young, feckless and fancy free when I did mine :)

Re: kids and getting a PhD, I found them compatible but hard work! I had my first DD in the 1st year of my PhD, my 2nd DD in my 3rd year, and my DS in my write-up year (at which point I was already employed as a postdoc). I'm now in my first permanent academic post after 5 years of post-doc work and newly upduffed with number 4.

toomuchtooold I'm not on shifts, purely Monday to Friday and no plans to change that in the position I'm currently in.

Wow schnitzel sounds like you've got a lot going on! Kudos to you for managing it!!

Schnitzel you're my inspiration!!

Are PHD's as sought after in Chemistry as they used to be?

Market in UK is crap and a lot of the research jobs have gone.

If it were me in think I would stick with the job you have. You have a degree and will be qualified by experience.

Should say I'm not a chemist or a PHD but do have some understanding of the industry.

No idea Lucky but most of the people I work with have one. The only people who don't are all technician level