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Original poster

To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

999 replies

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 19:54

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

OP posts:
hairymaryquitecontrary · 09/09/2017 16:24

(You cannot take one away from the other tho pro choice or anti choice, or pro life and anti life). You either see "choice" or "life"

Of course you can. You don't seem to have the first clue what you are talking about, and you are making even less sense the more you try to explain your bizarre position.

Lovingmybear2 · 09/09/2017 16:28

I am pro choice for the pregnant woman.

If the pregnant woman chooses to abort her unborn baby then I support that choice.

Gottagetmoving · 09/09/2017 16:29

I believe life begins at conception. It's not yet a baby but everything is there to become a new human being. I also believe that a woman has a right to terminate the pregnancy if she feels she cannot go ahead with it.
I don't like the argument that it doesn't matter because it's just a bunch of cells, it's not relevant.
People who are anti abortion but pro war and capital punishment are complete wankers.

Firefries · 09/09/2017 16:30

No one is controlling anyone ARum but see here again is where the problem lies. You as pro choice would be allowed to state don't tell me what to do and don't control me. It comes down to feeling your choice could be controlled or taken from you. But it's only perceived by you.
My stating there maybe after life and there may be an opportunity to meet these cells/fetus'/babies is also a possibility. I am not taking your choice from you, nor saying you have to believe that we may meet these aborted ones one day. But we cannot prove it and we might and if that's what I believe then I believe it and I can say this just like you say you have a choice. And I have the right to be heard and not mocked. That's how it works.

So I can say to you, you get to have your choices and your choice might be to abort or keep cells or whatever, but you would need to also agree yeah you are allowed to believe that these abortions maybe actually be humans and that you think we will meet them one day. You cannot say here's my choice accept it and then fob me off with what I think might happen. That's the problem with this debate.

MaisyPops · 09/09/2017 16:30

fire I really found it difficult to work out what you're saying in that post.

Pro life states independently on their own, I am pro choice and I dont want to kill a baby.
I am pro life. I also believe women have the right to choose. That is why for me the discussion is about CHOICE. The question is do I believe that my personal views should limit somebody else's choices when their actions have no effect on me? Answer no.

The issue is that lots of pro life people are actually anti choice. They think that because THEY are pro life, they have the right to limit other women's choices.

Guns and abortion aren't like for like.

I'm not in favour of everyone having the option to carry guns because people choosing to carry guns means I am more likely to get shot. Look at the difference in shooting rates between the U.K. and US. In the U.K. most shootings are linked to crime groups and gangs. In the US you risk be open fired at in a cinema or a shopping mall.

People having the choice to have a termination doesn't affect me.

Mittens1969 · 09/09/2017 16:32

@MrsHathaway, I agree with you absolutely. It's helped me when thinking of my little baby, to believe that maybe I'll see him again. (It was a little boy.)

Pro-choice is the only way to go. Without that, we would be going back to a world of orphanages that we left behind.

JacquesHammer · 09/09/2017 16:33

And I have the right to be heard and not mocked. That's how it works

Well that depends - a solicited opinion, yes you have a right to express yours.

But the problem is the raft of pro-birthers who give their two penneth unsolicited

Lovingmybear2 · 09/09/2017 16:33

MrsHath

I am not a Christian but your post sounds everything a decent and loving human being feels for another.

Your post is the epitome of what faith should be all about.

Firefries · 09/09/2017 16:35

Maisypops no guns and abortion aren't like for like as a subject matter, but when it comes down to decisions and choice they are the same. They are both controversial and misunderstood, but the arguments are the same. It's about rights or choices isn't it. So in a nutshell they are similar.

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 09/09/2017 16:37

Imagine that we do die and then one day we do face these folk that we aborted and they say why? Why did you end it for me?

Who's aborting "folk"? People abort embryos, zygotes and foetuses, not "folk".

So the afterlife is full of talking, pro-life clumps of cells and embryos?

Lovingmybear2 · 09/09/2017 16:38

i have the right to be heard and not mocked

Indeed you do but you don't get to tell me what I can or cannot do to my body because of your beliefs.

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 09/09/2017 16:39

And I have the right to be heard

Yep.

and not mocked

Nope.

hairymaryquitecontrary · 09/09/2017 16:39

And I have the right to be heard and not mocked. That's how it works

No you don't. You have the right to state your views, you have no right to not have them mocked. None at all. Why would you have?

hairymaryquitecontrary · 09/09/2017 16:39

I am pro life. I also believe women have the right to choose

Then you are pro-choice.

Lovingmybear2 · 09/09/2017 16:40

Guns and abortion are totally different.

Anyone can carry a gun. only women can get pregnant

Elendon · 09/09/2017 16:41

People having the choice to have a termination doesn't affect me.

Exactly this.

MaisyPops · 09/09/2017 16:45

I am pro life. I also believe women have the right to choose
Then you are pro-choice.
I am pro life and pro choice.
I personally hold pro life views (other than medical reasons or sexual assault etc), but I don't believe my personal views should influence other people's choices.

I get annoyed at people calling themselves pro life when they are really anti-choice.

fire
They are not similar.

Someone having the choice to have an abortion doesn't affect the general public. It affects the woman and her partner/baby dad/family. Millions of women could have an abortion and their choice wouldn't impact on the rest of us.

People having the option to carry guns, does affect the safety of the general public.
Millions of people could carry a gun and we are more likely to get shot at.

hairymaryquitecontrary · 09/09/2017 16:49

Then you aren't using pro-life in the accepted sense of the word, because "pro-life" in this context means that you don't want anyone to have the choice.
If we all just make up our own meanings you can't even say anything.

itsbetterthanabox · 09/09/2017 16:50

Maisypops
That's not what pro life means. Pro life means anti choice.
Many women wouldn't personally have abortions but support the right of other women to have the choice. That's what pro choice is- what you personally would do has no bearing on it.

Elendon · 09/09/2017 16:55

MrsHathaway an aborted baby

Miscarriage is termed an abortion in medicine. And if you do have one late you may need an operation to remove the products of conception.

It might be a baby in your mind (mine were babies in my mind, but they were indeed blobs right out of horror films)

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 09/09/2017 16:57

Imagine that we do die and then one day we do face these folk that we aborted and they say why? Why did you end it for me?

Ok, I've imagined it.

I would look then directly in the eye & tell them the truth:

I didn't want to be pregnant & I didn't want a baby or to bring up a child.
I was enjoying my life at the time & a pregnancy & baby would have changed my life irrevocably, and I was not prepared to give up the lifestyle I was enjoying at that time.
To do so would have felt like an excessive punishment for a lapse of judgement on my part for neglecting to use contraception.

Is that answer sufficient?
To be fair, it probably helps that I'm an atheist & don't believe in life after death or any day of reckoning & judgement bollocks.

MaisyPops · 09/09/2017 16:57

hairy
It's why I clarify and in any discussion other than a thread like this I will always say pro choice and clarify with personally wouldn't have one.

A few years back I was reading a lot on the pro life vs anti choice debate. What someone was saying is that actually, there needs to be a shift in the debate. We need to stop allowing pro life (anti choice) people dress up their desire to curb women's reproductive rights as being cute and cuddly. Pro life puts such a positive spin on such a regressive set of views and makes forced pregnancy sound like a wonderful thing because you get a bundle of life at the end, at which point people would obviously be so grateful that they were pushed into having a baby they didn't want.

In my opinion, Pro life should be used to describe somebody who personally wouldn't have an abortion for whatever reason. I know it's not how it's used but I'm being idealistic.

I would love to see the political and ethical discussion framed as pro vs anti choice because that's what it is.

BertrandRussell · 09/09/2017 17:18

Pro life means imposing your beliefs on other people. Pro choice doesn't. Simple.

MaisyPops · 09/09/2017 17:19

I agree it does in the current debate.

I would like to see a time when the debate stopped being framed as pro life / anti choice and started being termed 'pro choice / anti choice'.

I'm being idealisitic, i know.

hairymaryquitecontrary · 09/09/2017 17:25

Well that's nice and all but at the moment it's not very helpful.