To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

[coconuttella]

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

@blueberrypie0112, I know, there are people like that, sadly, but there are those who see the women as victims as well as the foetus, and the abortion industry as being to blame. Believe me, I know a lot of women like that. Just a bit patronising, of course.

Pro abortionists (unless they're hippocrites) should support it until birth

I do. But I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice (in much the same way as they are not pro life but anti-choice)

I do. But I'm not pro-abortion

So you're anti abortion?

No, I'm PRO-CHOICE. Helps to read the whole sentence.

I'm not pro abortion. I'm pro choice.

I'm very pro choice. I believe that a woman should be able to have an abortion at any time for any reason. The woman's rights in my mind must be prioritised over the babys until spontaneous birth/planner c-section/planned induction is complete.

I view any attempt to restrict access to safe abortion as anti choice and more importantly anti woman. It's misogynistic to not give women autonomy regarding their own bodies.

I have also experienced a late second trimester miscarriage. This does not change my views. My lost baby was wanted. An aborted baby usually is not. 2 different circumstances, 2 different approaches needed.

No, I'm PRO-CHOICE. Helps to read the whole sentence

I Did read it, you love a good late term abortion...

...but object to being called pro abortion

Yes, I love late term abortion. That s definitely what I said.

Pro-abortion is not accurate. Pro-choice is.

Odd coming back to a thread and seeing that now pro choice people (regardless of what they'd do in that situation) are suddenly pro abortion, baby murderers.

I used to think I was pro life. Then realises thay whilst I perso ally wouldn't have one other than medical grounds, I couldn't defend thr position of some pro life people who arrogantly felt they were right want to decrease other's access to safe health care. That isn't pro life. It is anti choice.

And so I became pro life and pro choice because I am grateful that I have the choice to hold pro life personal views. If the anti-choice bridgade had their way I wouldn't have the option.

Still find on tbia thread that most of the reasonable posters have been pro choice and the most angry ones have been pro life anti choice.

Just like you like a good forced birth, mum56. ....

Being pro choice isn't about being for abortion you donut. It's about respecting people's right to make choices about their own body! I would rather abortions did not need to exist. Whilst there is a need for an abortion, I believe access should be unconditional, not based on a postcode lottery or affordability, and they should take place in clean licensed premises by a registered healthcare professional. When abortion access is stripped back, all of these are affected in varying ways.

Being pro choice isn't about being for abortion you donut. It's about respecting people's right to make choices about their own body! I would rather abortions did not need to exist. Whilst there is a need for an abortion, I believe access should be unconditional, not based on a postcode lottery or affordability, and they should take place in clean licensed premises by a registered healthcare professional

Well said.

I wonder how moral ajd high and mighty the anti choice warriors would be if they had their way and women were dying from taking pills from the internet and attempting DIY or back street abortions. Still, a woman is just a baby oven so who gives a shit

Being pro choice isn't about being for abortion

How does being pro choice and anti abortion work?

How do you feel about prohibitions on being able to sell blood or kidneys?

The same. That we have the choice to do what we want with our bodies, but no-one else can lay claim to the use of them. It's a good analogy in fact. Cut out a kidney, it's your body, but let the law prosecute the person who buys it, and let the law uphold that your body not be requisitioned as a commodity for another person.
The law would never countenance forcing a man to give a kidney to save the life of any person. But it countenances using women's bodies as resources.

In fact IME most pro-choice people have a time limit that ends some time before birth, after which they support "slavery" and "ownership".

Not in my experience, and those that do are 'limited choice' rather than pro choice. I do not share that stance. I do not support enslaving women, even for a few weeks, and preventing them from using their bodies as they choose.

At any point in her pregnancy, a woman faces less risk to her health by terminating rather than proceeding to full term and giving birth. Birth is still a life threatening process for a woman, and certainly can permanently damage one's body.

I'm sure people heard this week about the young woman in labour in China whose family vetoed her chance for a caesarian, and the pain drove her to suicide from a hospital window. It is literally inhuman to be treated as not having the right to control your own body.

No other person should have the right to force me, or any woman to take risks with my health that I have not freely chosen for myself. Laws that compel women to bear personal risk are inhumane.

Women are still not recognised in law as having full bodily autonomy and this is how the law exposes that we are not to have equal rights to men.

It's perfectly possible to have a discussion on abortion ethics. This thread has 638 messages at time of typing this.

The fact that people are very firm in their convictions - either in favour or against - does not mean that it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion.

For my part, I believe abortions should be legal, access should be available to all pregnant women, and abortions should be legal much later into pregnancy than is the case at present.

But, I accept that a lot of people disagree, I accept they are entitled to their opinions, and I am open to changing my mind. I might become less supportive on abortion, I might become more supportive. Rational opinions can change with evidence, with personal experience.

There are extremists of course who will try to shut down any debate. But the lunatic fringes who protest outside abortion clinics are not representative of the majority of people. Extremists are, by the very definition of the word, at the extremes. They do not represent the majority.

FWIW, my view:

• If you want an abortion, you should be allowed one.
• If you don't want one, you shouldn't have to have one.

See, everyone wins!

How does being pro choice and anti abortion work?

So i am personally pro life. Unless it's a medical reason i wouldn't have one.
I wish there was no need for abortion.

But there is a need. And as long as there is a need then I will defend the rights of women to access safe abortion.

Pro choice people aren't saying "yey abortions are great". They are saying 'as there is a need, we defend the right for a woman to choose'

I''m not pro or anti abortion. In the same way I'm not pro or anti hip replacements or heart transplants. If you need one you need one.

katherina I found the stat i quoted on gov.uk
www.gov.uk/government/statistics/report-on-abortion-statistics-in-england-and-wales-for-2016

How does being pro choice and anti abortion work?

You really don't understand what "pro choice" means, do you? Pro choice is about respecting a woman's right to choose to terminate should she want to. It doesn't mean we are glad abortion exists, it just means we would rather that access is fair and safe whilst it needs to exist. Banning and restricting abortion doesn't prevent abortions you see. It just kills women.

How does being pro choice and anti abortion work?

Presumably it's not unlike being teetotal but defending people's right to drink alcohol. Or even being vehemently anti-smoking but disapproving of smoking bans.

I am firmly pro choice. A woman who wishes to stop being pregnant should be helped to achieve that as smoothly and safely as possibly, and as at as low an outlay to her as possible. I believe "as early as possible, as late as necessary" is a lesser evil than forced birth.

I also believe every single abortion is a tragedy. It means something unwanted has happened and is happening. It's only ever the least worst option. But the tragedy is the unwanted pregnancy or fatal fetal abnormalities, not the termination per se.

It doesn't take mental gymnastics to hold those two positions at once.

Exactly MrsH. Terminations are a symptom, and not the problem itself.

Can you imagine what rights regarding termination would look like across the globe if it was men that became pregnant? I'm sure they wouldn't be viewed as mere baby incubators.

Mumof56 are you a bit hard of thinking? or just being deliberately rude?

Being pro-choice means you support a womans choice to have an abortion should she want/need one. it also means supporting a womans choice NOT to have an abortion if thats what she wants. that's what choice means.

And the reason the 24 week thing is brought up, is because that is where the law currently draws a line. For me personally, should a woman wish to terminate after 24 weeks that should be her right.

My own termination at 18 was awful, I didn't want to have one, but i had a shit mother and a shit boyfriend and I didn't feel i could have a baby and bring it up on my own. I was really unwell after it and took months to recover. I later had a late miscarriage. None of which are relevent to someone elses life, or gives me the right to tell other woman what they should or shouldn't do with their own bodies.

I agree with nearly everything you said @MrsHathaway apart from the "tragedy" comment. Not all abortions are a tragedy. An unwanted pregnancy isn't a tragedy, it's a set of circumstances that you'd rather hadn't happened of course, but that doesn't equate to a tragedy in every case. Plenty of women have an early abortion and move on without any regrets or difficulties.

A tx can be part of a tragedy without being the wrong decision. Leaving a bad relationship can be painful but it's the bad relationship that's sad, not the leaving.

Upthread I said I wished nobody ever had an abortion, because I'd far rather nobody was ever in the situation of wanting one. Being pregnant when you don't want to be has been the cause of oppression of women for centuries, and British women have options nowadays that reduce unwanted pregnancies by a huge proportion compared to our grandmothers and their grandmothers etc etc.