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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To be frustrated that it's impossible to have a discussion on abortion ethics....

999 replies

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 19:54

On one side there's those who believe an embryo has fully human rights from conception, and on the other those who believe the foetus has no rights at all until birth.

Both sides seem to put forward their position forcefully and dogmatically as though they're stating the obvious, and anyone who thinks the ethics surrounding it may be a more complex is shouted down, especially by some on the pro-chioice side who seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with their stance as a misogynistic slave of the patriarchy.

Personally, I'm not in either camp and find the ethical questions complex, with this being brought home the other evening when I was reading that Incas didn't regard babies and toddler as having human status until the age of 3-4 (where they had a ceremony to mark this rite of passage) and no longer totally dependent on their mothers and past the most perilous time wrt child mortality. It made me question again my thoughts on when we should a human should acquire rights, and frustrated me that any discussion on this immediately degenerates into a slanging match.

OP posts:

Nuttynoo · 06/09/2017 19:57

Not just Incas. In Hinduism and Buddhism a child isn't believed to have a soul until the age of 1-5 (depends on culture). Possible that's why in India and China abortions aren't considered a big deal for non-Biblically inclined folk.

specialsubject · 06/09/2017 19:57

The point is 'choice'. It is a decision for the pregnant person alone.

Don't want an abortion? Don't have one.

MaisyPops · 06/09/2017 19:59

I think there's a lot of people who have very measured views but we tend to stay out of these threads for good reason.

Personally I think the debate is 'pro choice vs anti choice'.

I am personally pro life, but i am also pro choice. I wouldn't have an abortion other than medical reasons but I don't believe my personal views should be imposed on others.

I tend to find that pro choice people respect people's choice not to have an abortion. Whereas I find the 'pro lifers' aren't just personally pro life, they are actually anti choice and feel their personal views shpuld be imposed on other women. I have a massive issue with that.

Glumglowworm · 06/09/2017 20:02

I think the majority of people don't fall into the extreme of either side

I am pro-choice but agree that there should be a legal limit on how far into a pregnancy abortions can be carried out (except for extreme medical reasons). I don't feel that I have the medical knowledge to have much of an opinion on what that limit is, but I believe that it should be decided by medical experts and reviewed periodically to account for advances in technology.

Glumglowworm · 06/09/2017 20:05

maisypops perfectly sums up the problem with the debate, especially in the US. It's not that people have strong beliefs, it's when they impose those beliefs on others which does come from the anti-choice side (excellent choice of words there!).

EezerGoode · 06/09/2017 20:05

I would never come on one of these threads and give my opinion..what would be the point? I don't want to upset people..my views are mine.i can't help how I feel..but I know I'm in the minority..

SerfTerf · 06/09/2017 20:08

The incas offered up their children as human sacrifices to appease the sun gods. (Don't google it if you're of a sensitive disposition.) I wouldn't factor their philosophies into any modern ethical discussion at all.

Original poster

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 20:10

The point is 'choice'. It is a decision for the pregnant person alone.

This is precisely my issue with these discussions... One side makes their point as apparently blindingly obvious when I don't think it is.

Someone could equally turn round and say:

"The point is 'life'. The foetus is alive, albeit within their mother, and no one has the right to deny that foetus a right to life."

I think both are simplistic, but it always boils down to simplistic "choice" or "life" mantras without exploring deeper issues.... For instance, when we should consider life as beginning and how should we accord rights to that life, or what restrictions should there be on choice with regard to our actions when they impact onto another life. A baby is as dependent on its mother (or at least others) after birth as before it, so why does the act of being born immediately mean you are given the full range of human rights that you didn't have before. These are complex questions...

OP posts:

BertrandRussell · 06/09/2017 20:11

There are no generalized ethics about abortion. Just personal ones.

Don't like abortion? Don't have one. But don't impose your values on other people.

BertrandRussell · 06/09/2017 20:12

"A baby is as dependent on its mother (or at least others) after birth as before it,"

The key words here are (or at least others). You have answered your own question.

EezerGoode · 06/09/2017 20:13

Coconut I think it's to do with the rights of the mother,in that while the baby is inside her it's part of her body,so her choice what happens

Velvian · 06/09/2017 20:15

I don't get into debates usually, because I find it extremely difficult that some people believe that even a raped child should be forced to go to full term pregnancy and birth. I can't begin to comprehend holding an opinion that forcefully. I see it as a total empathy failure. Nobody wants an abortion, but sometimes it is the least bad outcome.

Nuttynoo · 06/09/2017 20:17

I think it needs to be noted that even in cultures where abortion is illegal (and they don't care about the mother's life at all), the punishment for killing the baby afterwards isn't as harsh. Which is a bullshit argument for 'life' really. For example in certain really poor Islamic countries, illegitimate babies (or those born in so called dishonour marriages) are often murdered after they are born and it's seen as perfectly valid while aborting it would have had the mum sentenced to death/lashing.

Original poster

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 20:18

Although I don't necessarily agree with the pro-life position, if you do strongly believe that a foetus has human rights then it's perfectly natural to want to protect those rights by opposing abortion. It's not the same the other way round as whether you choose to keep you baby or abort it, it's still your choice. For instance, if we happened to go back in time and cross continents to Inca civilasation, and we saw people killing their own babies/toddlers under the age of 'humanity', would it be reasonable to say "well, I wouldn't kill my 18 month old, but if they want to kill theirs, it's their choice and none of my business".

OP posts:

HTKB · 06/09/2017 20:19

I'm pro choice.

I am always astounded by pro choice people who think anti choice/pro life people should just shut up, don't want an abortion don't have one etc etc. Anti choice people truly believe you are committing murder, that you are killing a person. Of course they won't shut up about it! Who would, if we thought the murder of children was being sanctioned daily by the Government and the medical establishment?

It's ridiculous to think you can silence people, often fairly distressed people, when they think murder is being committed. I'm also not sure whether it's something you can be really educated about either. Some people just see it that way and it doesn't seem to be a particularly mutable position.

I'm just pleased that the people who make our laws and deliver our healthcare tend not to see it that way.

On the subject of other cultures, Judaism does not recognise a baby as fully human until it is 30 days old. And abortion is permitted if the woman's life isn't danger.

SerfTerf · 06/09/2017 20:20

So now you're equating TOP to human child sacrifice!? 😳

Wherearemymarbles · 06/09/2017 20:20

To be honest i can see why some are very against abortion. Post 12 weeks the chances of a live birth are something above 95%

So to be very blunt an abortion is effectively terminating a viable human life.

Personally I believe its up to be individual but I would never ever shout down someone who felt it was morally indefensible.

SerfTerf · 06/09/2017 20:21

Here's a clue OP. Abortion does NOT equal murder.

BertrandRussell · 06/09/2017 20:22

"Post 12 weeks the chances of a live birth are something above 95%"

Sorry? Is this a typo?

AlmostAJillSandwich · 06/09/2017 20:22

Is there any scientific evidence on if a foetus can feel pain prior to birth, and if so, at what point in development that happens?

Personally i'm mostly pro choice , which i believe has been heavily influenced by me having serious MH issues which mean, that while i assume i can physically get pregnant (PCOS but that doesnt mean fully infertile), I couldn't cope with pregnancy or child birth. Because i would have no option for my own mental health and well being to terminate, i'm absolutely for women having a choice if theres a compelling reason to terminate.

BUT

I very much hate the idea of actually terminating if it causes any pain or distress to the foetus, and still think there should be limits on the reasons to abort. Not being the gender you wanted for example, i don't agree thats a valid reason to terminate under any circumstances. But then i also don't agree with genetically engineering babies via IVF for purposes such as being a tissue match for an already existing sibling who has an illness that may require they need things like bone marrow or a kidney or part of a liver.

Niminy · 06/09/2017 20:24

I don't think it's true that there are only personal ethics on abortion. Saying 'don't want an abortion, don't have them' presupposes there is a general acceptance that abortion in any circumstance is allowable and acceptable, because the statement presupposes the corollary 'want an abortion, have one', as if abortion on request for any reason and at any stage was an ethically neutral position.

But there are lots of complex ethical issues involved in abortion, and saying so doesn't make you a reactionary pro-life monster. Is it acceptable to have an abortion on the grounds of sex? At what stage does late abortion become infanticide - after all, if a child would be born alive but is aborted, then at some stage its capacity for independent life will have to be prevented either before or after birth. Does birth confer full human rights or can a child in utero also be said to have rights? How should the rights of the mother and the rights of the child in utero be weighed. How does a society make a judgement about when abortion on grounds of disability is right and when it is unacceptable?

I don't know what I think about many of these questions. I think there are lots of grey areas and difficult issues here. I wish it were just as simple as saying 'it's all a matter of choice' or 'it's all about life'. But I don't think either of these positions is right.

Original poster

coconuttella · 06/09/2017 20:24

Coconut I think it's to do with the rights of the mother,in that while the baby is inside her it's part of her body,so her choice what happens

I get that.... but that logic only works if you assume that the foetus has no rights. If it does, then the ethical question is much more complex. Why should a foetus has no rights?

Personally I've not got a settled opinion on this but think that rights develop as a baby develops, and believe that an embryo that has yet to implant in a womb should be treated very differently from a baby at 39 weeks. I think the current law is probably about right.

OP posts:

YouCantArgueWithStupid · 06/09/2017 20:24

@Wherearemymarbles I think you need to educate yourself on this matter

khajiit13 · 06/09/2017 20:24

I'm pro choice. I don't have much of an issue with regards to when into their pregnancy a woman makes their decision either.

A woman's body is her own. I can't understand why any woman would encourage laws being put in place regarding the control they have over their own anatomy. It's bizarre. The amount of woman having late term abortions for anything other than medical reasons is incredibly low in this country anyway

JigglyTuff · 06/09/2017 20:24

Having had children, I think I'm even more pro choice than I was before. Being pregnant made me very ill and, during those 9-10 months, I felt completed defined by it - in the way other people treated me and in the way in which it impacted every single aspect of my life.

Having been pregnant, I find the lack of humanity necessary to believe it's acceptable to force someone else to go through that when they don't want a baby at the end completely horrific.

So probably I'm not terribly measured about it!

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