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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think that people who are not religious are as "moral" as those who are

64 replies

inadifficultsituation · 05/09/2017 23:07

Talking to a couple of colleagues the other day, they reckon that people who practise their religion are less likely to get divorced as they don't give up on marriage so easily.

AIBU to think that this negates how hard everyone finds divorce, and it is not only religious people who work at staying married ?

It was the ease with which they said it and the assumptions behind it which annoyed me. Especially as I am getting divorced, am not religious, and have stayed in a difficult marriage for years - trying to hold things together.

There was also a lot of talk of things being in "God's hands". Which just left me wondering how many people put up with abuse because they think it is somehow their fate, and also because they fear the disapproval of family and friends.

OP posts:

allegretto · 06/09/2017 06:14

Your title is confusing. It's probably true that religious couples are less likely to divorce. Morality is a separate issue though!

TizzyDongue · 06/09/2017 06:18

Religious people tend to be more hypocritical in their morals, I'd imagine the divorce rate is lower. Immoral things like adultery, marital abuse - physical and psychological - are brushed under the carpet. Where they stay because sins are only really bad if others know about them - you can't hide divorce: hence it's bad.

emmyrose2000 · 06/09/2017 06:20

The most immoral and hypocritical people I know are also the most religious.

That's not even counting the priests and other ministers of religion around the world who rape children and other innocent people.

Boredboredboredboredbored · 06/09/2017 06:25

Look at the Rotherham sex abuse scandal. Werent most of those men Muslims? Nuff said.

Embarrassedatsoftplay · 06/09/2017 06:30

I grew up in a Christian family and Church. The best people in my life and the most moral are my non-Christian friends. I'm coming back to faith now after realising not all Christians are like this but I experienced:

Emotional and physical abuse
Sexual assault from a Church member
Bullying/gossiping amongst Church members, especially gossiping in the form of "passing on a prayer request"

I know not all Christians are like this (something that has taken me a long time to come to terms with) and has terrified me about reading the Bible/praying again as it brings back all these memories, I'm trying to find a Church and build up trust in others again.

LittleBooInABox · 06/09/2017 06:32

There more moral, they don't do good out of a need to be rewarded by heaven.

And you don't see atheists killing people because they don't believe the same.

Religion is evil and should be removed from the state. It shouldn't have power in our courts and laws.

Embarrassedatsoftplay · 06/09/2017 06:35

Also, they are more likely to stay married when they shouldn't.

One of my family members sexually assaulted my sister, and his wife refused to leave him.

The man that sexually assaulted me (and others), it was the same scenario. Church was his access to young girls like me and they knew what he was like and decided to handle it internally, keeping him in the Church, and I wasn't encouraged to go to police at all (never have). They moved to the other side of town. His reputation is such that his kids won't bring grandkids over to stay. His wife complained about that to my Mum that they can never have grandkids to stay (yes they're still friends and Mum owed a travel cot from them to use for my daughter 2 years ago - livid and thought she was being shady about where she got it). Well I wonder why - you should have divorced him!!!

BlackeyedSusan · 06/09/2017 06:36

religious people are still human.

BartholinsSister · 06/09/2017 06:36

How can religious people claim to be moral when many of them worship someone, who they claim, drowned millions of puppies just because he was upset?

MumsOnCrack · 06/09/2017 06:38

YANBU - but...we did get married in a church and attended pre-wedding workshops with our vicar. They were really in-depth and really made us think about what we were entering into. Not that I think for one second you didn't.

LaContessaDiPlump · 06/09/2017 06:41

Bored there are millions of people who were raised Christian but aren't actually observant; Islam is no different in that regard. I don't recall any info in the news on whether those men were particularly devoted to their faith, so making it a religion-based crime seems a stretch to me.

sweetbitter · 06/09/2017 06:44

they reckon that people who practise their religion are less likely to get divorced as they don't give up on marriage so easily

It could be true, but I don't think there's anything morally admirable about staying in an unhappy marriage just to avoid getting divorced.

Elledouble · 06/09/2017 07:00

Oh, this POV pisses me off.

My partner was still an evangelical Christian (although beginning to have his doubts) when we got together.

He actually asked me what was stopping me going on a killing spree if I wasn't afraid of going to hell. He genuinely hadn't thought of the fact that maybe people would just do things because it was the right thing to do and they generally care about other people.

It just seems completely hypocritical to me. If it's God stopping you from doing things rather than compassion for your fellow man, you're not a particularly nice person, whichever belief system you subscribe to.

Boredboredboredboredbored · 06/09/2017 07:15

LaContessaDiPlump Wed 06-Sep-17 06:41:51
Bored there are millions of people who were raised Christian but aren't actually observant; Islam is no different in that regard. I don't recall any info in the news on whether those men were particularly devoted to their faith, so making it a religion-based crime seems a stretch to me.

Actually it was publicised that the authorities tried to work with the local mosques these men attended. Who said it was a religious based crime? We are discussing morals attached to having a religion.

Bumpsadaisie · 06/09/2017 07:25

I'm a christian married to a c of e priest. I agree with you. I don't think being "religious" makes you any more "moral" than anyone else.

Going to church regularly can provide a reflective space which helps you get perspective on your behaviour. Sometimes I realise in church that I've been a cow to DH, for example and that I should apologise.

But it's not always like that, sometimes I'm faffing with the children or just looking forward to my post church coffee and not much soul searching is happening.

And of course there are many other routes to reflection outside of church.

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 06/09/2017 07:27

Equating morality with belief in God is a pernicious idea that leads to the judgement and ostracism of those outside the religious tribe. But it is certainly a viewpoint that is prevalent throughout the world as is shown by this Pew Research study. In Egypt, for example, only 4% of the population think it's not necessary to believe in God to be moral.

Bumpsadaisie · 06/09/2017 07:29

What this throws is demonstrating is the wide range of beliefs within "Christianity".

A liberal c of e Christian (like me) is quite a different creature to eg a fundamentalist evangelical.

barefootinkitchen · 06/09/2017 07:33

I don't think that religious people are more moral but I do think that religious people are more likely to stay married , especially when from a cultural background where women aren't empowered etc.

Lokisglowstickofdestiny · 06/09/2017 07:36

If you have to be told how to behave by a religion you are weak.

RebootYourEngine · 06/09/2017 07:41

The people who i know who are very religious have the worst morals. Drinking, cheating, having sex outside marriage, gambling, taking drugs, affairs, i could go on.

NapQueen · 06/09/2017 07:47

I was having a conversation with a Muslim friend recently and he asked why I "behave well" if I dont believe in a god/afterlife. I tried to explain that I have morals because I want to be a good person here and now because its nice to be nice. Because it is important to be a positive within society.

He just didnt understand, why I didnt seem to need the threat of a deity to keep me in the straight and narrow.

Morals exist because of who we are as a person. Our nature and our nurture.

Witsender · 06/09/2017 07:50

Try being an agnostic working for a Christian charity. 😂 The number of times I have heard that Christian volunteers are more committed, or other similar rot. Ignoring that the non believers are giving up their time based on nothing more than their own moral code, and don't need a book to tell them to do it.

Ratonastick · 06/09/2017 07:51

There's a very blasphemous satire by Jon Niven called the Second Coming which basically says that man's approach to religion cocked everything up in the first place. The central tenet of the novel is that God only issued one commandment "Be Nice" and that everything else is interpretation. I think that really sums it all up. Just be nice and all the rest of the moral, decency and ethical requirements fall in to place.

It's a bit of a clunky novel in places and could have done with a better edit, but definitely worth reading for the central premise, the one liners and the absolutely pyrotechnical swearing.

Trills · 06/09/2017 07:53

I was going to say what LRD said.

Being moral and "not divorcing" are quite different points.

I think religious people are more likely to stay together even when it will make them (and possibly their children) miserable.

LakieLady · 06/09/2017 07:55

Which just left me wondering how many people put up with abuse because they think it is somehow their fate,

My ex MIL was a devout Catholic, married to a violent, abusive drunk. When she spoke to her priest about it, he told her that she had made her vows before god and that she had to keep. She genuinely believed that the more she suffered in this life, the greater her reward would be in heaven.

As a consequence, 5 of her 6 kids were damaged by witnessing his violence and by the beatings they suffered at his hands. They spent their early lives in terror about what might happen when Daddy got home.

By the time the youngest was 2, and starting to get hit by him, MIL's priest had retired and she went to see the new one. He told her that it was ok to leave him, get a judicial separation, and even a decree nisi, because as long as she never got a decree absolute. She got an ouster order and he had to move out, and the youngest has't ended up dysfunctional like the siblings.

As an atheist, I was fascinated by the notion of god being a stickler for the bureaucracy.

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