WIBU to print off this article and give it to the teacher.

[Imalldonethanks]

DD (8) came home from school at the end of last term talking about the differences in male and female brains (not relating to their weight or structure!). Her teacher had declared she has a 'male' brain because she is logical and rational.
This sort of talk boils my blood.
My next child is in her class this year and I don't want her to listen to this sort of crap.

I get on reasonably well with this teacher, but there are very few opportunities to chat.

So WIBU to print off an article from The New Scientist debunking that theory and send it in with a note saying 'thought you might find this interesting'?

catkind

Sticking with the bone theme, I see it more as

you have elbows like a man. I bet you're good at throwing! Really fantastic. You definitely appear to have a strength in this area. I'm glad I noticed as as a good teacher, I will do all I can to nurture your abilities.

The teacher didn't say to every girl in the class, you're shit at throwing because you have crappy elbows only good for holding infants. They said it to a single child. They spoke about averages or typical traits but also drew attention to the fact that statistics exist because trends are broken.

ADD is not more common in boys. Girls are simply less likely to be diagnosed because they tend to be better at covering it up.

And also there is still an attitude of ADD is a male thing which leads to less girls and women being diagnosed.

Quick update - I did see the teacher after school and mentioned that she had prompted some long and interesting discussions in our house over the summer about her male / female brain comments. I said it had driven me to the internet and had found lots of evidence that suggested it wasn't the case.
She expressed some curiosity so I said I could print her off an article or 2 if she was interested. So WestWithTheSun if you could recommend any other articles I'd be interested to read them.

I also asked if she'd seen the BBC programme and she said she was going to watch it on catch up.

Thanks to those of you who have recommended other sources of info on this subject - I'll be having a look at some of those.

I'm pleased I mentioned something - maybe she won't change her mind. Maybe she will.

The other thing you seem to say is that children can be taught to hide their ASD symptoms and that girls have learnt this

ASD is often overlooked or missed in young girls compared to boys with ASD at a similar age. Partly down to the fact that girls are often more easily able to pick up on social cues which can mask it. A girl in one of my classes a few years back was on the Autism Spectrum. I watched her closely through the year and she was incredible; she would watch what the other children in the class were doing and within a split second would make sure she replicated their actions. She had been in our school for some time before she came to me. Not one person spotted anything. So yes I believe it's entirely possible that some children can learn to 'hide' their ASD symptoms. It's a very simplistic way of describing what's occurring though and I doubt she did it to 'hide' anything, she just followed the crowd and was incredibly savvy at it.

That's great imall.
It sounds like you dealt with it very well.

ADD? My phone won't let me type a s d without the spaces

I can count on the fingers of one hand (excluding thumbs) the number of papers on sex-associated brain differences that use good science. And they tend to come to a very boring 'it's complicated' or 'nothing statistically significant' conclusion anyway, which is why they don't grab headlines. (I have met very few primary school teachers who are properly scientifically literate; it doesn't seem to be a quality that goes with a rapport with young children, more's the pity).

The real issue here is not whether differences between male and female intellectual capacity can be proven. We could (and probably will) go on forever going round in circles discussing the truth or determination of these differences or lack of them. The real question is why people are so invested in believing in these so-called differences. Why do people believe that a boy who likes pink needs a sex change operation? Why are they so scared of girls who think rationally? And why reinforce at primary school the idea that you're not really female enough if you happen to be good at science?

I do agree that buttonholing the teacher isn't the best approach. I'm not sure what the answer is, other than pointing out to your DD that primary schools can be very insular, narrow-minded institutions indeed and exist to be grown out of at this stage.

Teehee at Lurkedforever1

YANBU at all. I have just sent this thread to my primary school teacher mother who confirms that she is banging her head off her desk and that "this sort of shite gives us a bad name"

In my years of studying for a selection of advanced qualifications in neurosciences and neuroanatomy I have never come across this mysterious "male brain" and "female brain" and can confirm that no, this teacher was not correct. The new scientist article is pretty good but I'd hold it in reserve.

First, I'd approach the teacher and ask for evidence to back this up. Explain you have been reading around various human biology subjects with your DD and don't seem to be up to date. Seeming confused is your friend here, because then when the teacher gives some drivel you can say "oh it's just we've been reading this article that says..." and then correct her without it turning all confrontational. She is unlikely to say that her random beliefs usurp the new scientist.

Ah that's great OP - curse my slow typing fingers!
Sounds like you have handled it really well.

FerretsAreFeminists

Categorically untrue. Please don't pedal nonsense. I won't pretend to understand the political leanings of vermin and you don't pretend to explain diagnosis of complex medical conditions.

Of course, if you're about to publish groundbreaking research I'd be ecstatic to get an early reading.

WhooooAmI24601

In my experience, some children are excellent at masking their behaviours. Girls tend to be much better at this than boys. I feel that this supports both of my assertions; brains are different as girls have the ability to efficiently mask behaviour and boy brains and girl brains tend to be different.

Can you tell me why I'm wrong?

Excellent, OP! As I'd hoped, a teacher interested in information and education!

Um, solar what nonsense am I pedalling? You even said yourself that girls are better at masking their symptoms than boys are later in your post which is exactly the same as what I said.

YANBU to be annoyed but YABU to send in the article. Sending passive aggressive messages to the teacher to educate herself especially when you haven't even spoken about what was actually said is really very rude.

What lurked said^^

And yes some of us, more commonly female, with developmental disabilities bottle up parts of it. And it often leads to the fall out at home. I can manage my adhd just fine at work, but I come in the house and I can't get my head round even basic organisation. That's pretty normal conditioning. My DS with asd and was diagnosed easily, my girl on the other hand while hitting the criteria for pda and adhd head on is having a much harder battle. She is 'perfect' at school but exhibits extremely anxiety getting there and lashes out violently when home. Getting camhs to take this seriously is hard.

The other thing that happens is these things are misdiagnosed- so women with asd will be diagnosed as having dyspraxia, or depression or even pds. I use an online forum for people with developmental disorders and the number of women, especially mother's, who realise what's going on as after years of misdiagnosis and often after their dc are diagnosed is shocking.

The feminist argument with hormones is that society allows certain hormones to effect boys and girls in set ways. So because boys are allowed to be boys and rough and naughty and it's tolerated that testoerone increases hyperactivity, impulsivity and agression. While I agree with the effect of socialisation completely I'm not sold with this argument. I think it makes sense that hormones effect the brain differently, for survival of the species it makes sense oxytocin bonds mother with child for example, but I don't think it's unreasonable that socialastion exasserbates the effects of hormones- oestrogen effects the left side of the brain for example, which deals with organisation so at the point this drops for me each month is when my adhd gets much worse, so oestrogen benefiting organisation added to society expecting girls to multitask and taken on more means the areas of the brain that deal with this develop a bit more in girls, which masks symptoms of many developmental disabilities and leaves them unnoticed and unhelped-but that doesn't change that at birth brains are not sexed, and that either sex is similarly capable of learning organisational skills, or similarly less able in those of us with developmental disabilities, it's just that boys are given much more leway with this than girls. I'd disagree with the idea teachers punish boys more, as it doesn't follow the social norms where from early on boots violent and entitlement is allowed with 'boys will be boys' and 'hes a boy he likes rough play' or 'boys need more active play' or 'boys are naturally more figgety' or similar which is seen everywhere. Along with boys have more adventurous storylines in books and tv, boys having more physical toys and so on. They are 'allowed' to let out these hyper, impulsive, aggressive difficulties in a way girls aren't. And sadly no matter what we do at home it still seems to seap in. My ds acted it much more at school (and so got help quicker) his sister, who is much more severely and complexly effected in my personal and professional opinion, is a perfectionist at school and falls apart at home.

No scientist worth their salt supports the male and female brains theory any more. In substantial blind studies it has proven impossible for trained scientists to tell whether or not a brain belonged to a man or a woman. There is far more variation in everyone's brains for this to stand up.

(And as my developmental scientist husband always puts it, "most popular neuroscience is unreproducible crap")

*In my experience, some children are excellent at masking their behaviours. Girls tend to be much better at this than boys. I feel that this supports both of my assertions; brains are different as girls have the ability to efficiently mask behaviour and boy brains and girl brains tend to be different.

Can you tell me why I'm wrong?*

I didn't say you were wrong. I've no definite proof one way or the other if girls brains are different to boys brains, though I think not. I think girls are conditioned from a very young age to pick up on social cues and nuances of behaviour, far more so than boys. I also think society conditions boys and girls to behave differently which can also have an impact on their ability to follow social cues. I believe a brain is a brain and it's the nurture and conditioning that defines how that brain works and functions. Again, it's purely opinion, much like your posts.

NoMoreNotToday

Excuse me only jumping on one part of your post but it's the part that jumped out. You say that there are biological and evolutionary benefits for hormones bonding mothers or whatever else.

You also say that the feminist approach is that it's society which allows these powerful chemicals to act differently. I could understand that if boys and girls had the same hormones yet the results were different. As it is, these hormones are entirely different and mostly sex-based. The feminist approach to this sounds like it's really scraping the barrel with ways of blaming the patriarchy for any apparent difference in the sexes, don't you think?

Girls are better at masking because of how they are socialsed. They learn not to make a fuss, they learn to fit in and get along because the alternative is being alone and therefore at risk from males. So they are socialsed early to learn these skills. And as they use these skills they develope the areas if the brains that deal with them more than males do. That's not an innate difference that's lived experience that changes use dependant brains.

Like I said im not sold on the feminist explanation for hormones, but I do agree with how socialisation effects us. Combined release of hormones and socialastion become lived experience and this influences brain development. And patriarchy are entirely responsibility for socialsed sex role stereotypes, one very significant part of lived experience.

WhooooAmI24601

it's purely opinion, much like your posts

But mine is based on observation of tens of thousands of children.

If a brain is a brain, do we all have the ability to gain PhDs from Oxbridge?

NoMoreNotToday

they learn to fit in and get along because the alternative is being alone and therefore at risk from males

And like that, you went from interesting to paranoid and incredible.

It's also worth bearing in mind that developmental disabilities are linked to prematurity and prem babies are more likely to be male, and male babies in NICU etc don't thrive as well as females. (More males are concieved than female but more are m/c, still birth, prem especially seriously so).

Nope that's just realistic, females learn early we are at risk from men and we socially compensate to minimise that risk.

Do we learn that? When?

Again, it sounds to me like you've gone massively off script and gone from proven fact to feminist propaganda.

Solaris, I have a question. For me the key question is not "are certains differences between men and women innate and others social" but "which are innate and which are social". Because it's pretty clear that (for example) men being larger is an innate trait. It's also equally clear that (for example) little girls liking pink is a social trait.

Do you believe that men are on average genetically better at mathematics than women ?