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Original poster

to think we no longer live in a Christian country

926 replies

orlantina · 04/09/2017 21:41

More than 53% of people have no faith - according to a recent survey.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41150792

That figure changes to 71% amongst 18-25 yr olds.

It surveyed 3000 adults - so it would be interesting to look behind the stats but it seems that more than half the country have no religion.

Christianity is still probably the most common religion out there.

Should this have implications for areas of national life?

OP posts:
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Fresh8008 · 08/09/2017 19:41

Humans are not innately good

Which is of course Christianities view, so they can offer the cure!
We have evolved cooperative behavior over time because it aids survival, within which we now label people as good for conforming to. So being 'good' is now in our DNA, but we are influenced by nature.

We have already removed religion from our legal system as it is an awful judge of morality. And this thread is about how we have mostly removed religion from our societal culture, and it works better. We just need to remove the vestigial anomalies.

Fresh8008 · 08/09/2017 19:53

So basically society can tolerate most things, but no place for Catholics. Talk about bigotry
What about Islam, aren't they anti gay, also anti women? much so than Catholics

Basically YES and YES. Society has moved on, our consciousness has been raised and we have become more moral. If people want to hold extreme views then ok we can tolerate that but they are not acceptable in public life.

Gay rights are moral. Pro-choice is moral. Womens equality is moral. You disagree fine but dont expect society to tolerate it.

This is why we are no longer a christian society. We know better.

Fresh8008 · 08/09/2017 19:58

The bible says none of the above, "children need to be punished"- that is not the bible. Only, the Bible is all about original sin and sin needs to be punished, from which only obedience to the christian god will save you from.

That is basically the whole Genesis to Revelations in a nutshell. Which part is wrong?

JacquesHammer · 08/09/2017 20:00

What about Islam, aren't they anti gay, also anti women? much so than Catholics

And had the MP in question been a Muslim MP and said the same as JRM I would have agreed with The Guardian saying exactly the same.

And hence why society should be secular.

Missymoo100 · 08/09/2017 20:01

Fresh8008- except you don't speak for all society on what is moral. There are many voices in a society with different views and opinions. Not everyone thinks pro choice is moral ,

JacquesHammer · 08/09/2017 20:06

What really irritates me about the anti-gay, anti-abortion type of religious follower is the fact that they deem it appropriate to push their views onto other people.

I am pro-choice, which for me means that if your beliefs mean you can't get an abortion you are at liberty to choose that.

I would have had a lot more respect for people like JRM if they said "my beliefs mean abortion is morally indefensible to me HOWEVER I would not presume my views should impact other people".

Fresh8008 · 08/09/2017 20:06

except you don't speak for all society on what is moral
I completely agree and would never want anyone person to decide for all society. We have all have our voices heard, they all feed into the system and our society have come to a consensus which the majority have agreed is fair, right and moral. I am just regurgitating the consensus that extreme religious views have no place in a modern Britain.

Missymoo100 · 08/09/2017 20:07

*The bible says none of the above, "children need to be punished"- that is not the bible. Only, the Bible is all about original sin and sin needs to be punished, from which only obedience to the christian god will save you from.

That is basically the whole Genesis to Revelations in a nutshell. Which part is wrong?*

No the bible says not to judge others, it says those without sin cast the first stone, judge not yet ye be judged- the very opposite of what your saying

Original poster
orlantina · 08/09/2017 20:08

There are many voices in a society with different views and opinions

Yet the Church of England is allowed to strongly influence opnion through its place of privilege in this country.

A country where not many people are members of the Church of England.

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Fresh8008 · 08/09/2017 20:09

"my beliefs mean abortion is morally indefensible to me HOWEVER I would not presume my views should impact other people"

I think that is exactly what JRM did say.

Original poster
orlantina · 08/09/2017 20:09

No the bible says not to judge others, it says those without sin cast the first stone, judge not yet ye be judged- the very opposite of what your saying

That's what Jesus says. There does seem to be some disparity between Old Testament God and Jesus.

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Fresh8008 · 08/09/2017 20:17

No the bible says not to judge others, it says those without sin cast the first stone, judge not yet ye be judged- the very opposite of what your saying

That is exactly the moral dilemma I mentioned earlier that no one has even been able to answer.

Don't Judge others, unless they are in a gay relationship in which case god/the church judges. Same for using contraception, abortion, sex, woman's rights .... the church is all about judging.

So how do you choose between what god says and independent moral choices? Judge?

Missymoo100 · 08/09/2017 20:20

I feel Christianity has been a positive influence. I think in society it is a good ground for morality. I don't trust humans to set the standard- as I said in the past pedophilia was once normal and legal in some cultures and that seems shocking now.
Maybe things are not so bad now, but as we move further from religion and set our own moral boundaries, it will be interesting to see what lows humanity will be capable of sinking to.

Missymoo100 · 08/09/2017 20:21

Fresh8008 it doesn't judge it offers guidance

Cailleach666 · 08/09/2017 20:23

I don't trust humans to set the standard

You need others to tell you right from wrong?

That's worrying.

JacquesHammer · 08/09/2017 20:23

I think that is exactly what JRM did say

He said something along the lines of "but parliamentary law won't change because public opinion is against me".

From which I took, I'd love to try but know I am on a hiding to nothing. Grin

CardinalSin · 08/09/2017 20:25

"I feel Christianity has been a positive influence."

Because you're a Christian. Other people, who aren't Christians, have stated that they don't think it has been/is. But you're right, and everyone else is wrong pretty much the whole ethos of Christianity

Original poster
orlantina · 08/09/2017 20:29

t will be interesting to see what lows humanity will be capable of sinking to

Punishing people because their religion thinks being gay is sinful?

That happens now.

Telling people that God has punished them when they get a disease.

That happens now.

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Original poster
orlantina · 08/09/2017 20:31

I don't trust humans to set the standard

You don't think there's a lot of male human influence in religious texts and male human influence in the control and interpretation of religious texts.

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Fresh8008 · 08/09/2017 20:35

I don't trust humans to set the standard- as I said in the past pedophilia was once normal and legal in some cultures and that seems shocking now

I get you think that Missymoobut but am glad its a very small minority opinion. As a historically christian country it took us 1875 years to introduce an age of consent. Pedophilia has been rife in the church hierarchy. I dont even know if god got Mary's consent before he impregnated her, never mind the hypocrisy of having children outside of marriage.

So I think society is fed up with god and the church setting the standard and turns out we can do a much better job using our own judgement.

Missymoo100 · 08/09/2017 20:39

callileach- yes people do need to know right from wrong, did you only read one line out of my last post. People are capable of extreme cruelty, brutality and evil. As I said pedophilia was once legal and very common by ancient greeks/ romans prior to Christianity. Values vary across the times they are not set. Christianity, and other religions have acted as a constant and a good grounding. If you remove it society will now set its own values, they will be decided by people and may not be for the better.

Missymoo100 · 08/09/2017 20:45

we can do a much better job using our own judgement.

  • that's it though, human judgement is not always good. Humans are selfish and capable of great cruelty, demonstrated time and time again. We are not so far removed from Christian values as of yet, but time will tell how it works out in the long run- I expect not very well as human nature is selfish, greedy. Those in power will set the standard to serve their own purpose.
Original poster
orlantina · 08/09/2017 20:47

If you remove it society will now set its own values, they will be decided by people and may not be for the better

Who do you think set Christian values?

Jesus.
Or God?
And which God?

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 08/09/2017 20:49

yes people do need to know right from wrong

And it's only Christianity that can teach people that?

Ontopofthesunset · 08/09/2017 20:53

Those in power always have set the standards, and written them too. Who do you think wrote the Bible? The Church was in power for a long time and many terrible things happened under its auspices.

And anyway, separation of Church and State won't mean hundreds of years of history and shared values will be erased.

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