to think we no longer live in a Christian country

[orlantina]

More than 53% of people have no faith - according to a recent survey.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41150792

That figure changes to 71% amongst 18-25 yr olds.

It surveyed 3000 adults - so it would be interesting to look behind the stats but it seems that more than half the country have no religion.

Christianity is still probably the most common religion out there.

Should this have implications for areas of national life?

Islam is on the rise, good luck with equality for women and tolerance of sexuality if they get a foot in the door

You think we have to impose Christianity to protect us from Islam?

Seriously. You think we would disestablish from the C of E and then establish with an Islamic church and impose Sharia law? FFS the ignorance

Not everyone has the benefits of good parents. Some kids get absolutely no moral guidance from home. If schools don't give it, they don't get any.
So you should let the church beat it into them? Good parents will teach good values, bad parents will instill bad values. Go figure. The church used to teach bad values to good children. Thankfully now, no one is listening.

Maybe your parents got the decent values from growing up in a Christian country? Nope the church forced my mother to give up her first child because she wasn't married and has lived her life tormented by that trauma. My father has deconverted after retirement but is still unable to recover from abuse the he received from his priest. So thank you very much Christianity.

I have had to discover what morality is all on my own and am very proud of my secular values.

The church beat it into them? talk about living in the past.All religions have a shameful past, some are still living in it. Christianity has moved on from those dark days.

Fresh i can totally sympathise with your parents with what they went through, I'm presuming Ireland? It was disgraceful and is a stain on Ireland's history. Evil men and evil women have been around since time began, i presume many went into priesthood and became nuns purely to abuse children. But that isn't what Christianity stands for, there was bad, i won't deny but also a hell of a lot of good. Its very easy to see all its shortcomings and failings if we look for it. Same with anything really.

spanielsgaze Then what exactly are you suggesting? How would you get the church to make these children from bad parents live a christian life and obey Gods laws? And what difference do you think this would actually make?

Yes it was Ireland, and I have since left. And I wouldn't be so sure that Christianity has moved on from those dark days there is still a lot covered up and there is still a lot of guilt laid on with a shovel that makes people feel very very bad about themselves.

MissyMoo100 - "I think society is becoming hollow, self serving and miserable. Unprecedented levels of depression and mental health problems, even among children."

Unprecedented? What? There have always been people with depression and people with various mental health problems through out all of our human history, but for the most part, up to recently, many of these people had to suffer in silence for fear of being taken away to an asylum, or being locked up in the attic, or being seen as possessed and so on. At least today, a doctor can diagnose an actual condition and try and suggest a course of treatment rather than getting a priest to try and exorcise 'an evil spirit' or demon!! And increasingly, we are allowed to speak about mental illness, thank goodness - that is why there seems to be more of it, it has become more visible. But Back in the day it just didn't happen.

And religion absolutely does not have a monopoly on morality, kindness, goodness and humanity.

there was bad, i won't deny but also a hell of a lot of good. I think you could pretty say this about any normal group in society (barring extremists) - it's totally meaningless!

Its very easy to see all its shortcomings and failings if we look for it. Same with anything really.

Yes, 'same as anything'. But religions position themselves as being better than anything else, as the only source of morality.

MysticalRose in seeking non-biased sources and research, wouldn't it be better to avoid using the Catholic Herald as an example?

And when considering the "benefits" if the church's actions, could we perhaps consider their role in the disappearance of Nazis such as Adolf Eichmann, Josef Mengele and Klaus Barbie? I realise this isn't easy as many of the Catholic church's post 1939 records are still conveniently sealed - much like many records relating to longstanding and widespread abuse, come to that - but surely we should try?

Let's not forget that non disclosure isn't a personal decision by a few renegade priests, but a policy reached at the grassroots of an entire organisation ... which might lead an enquiring mind to wonder just what else they're hiding

"Have to laugh at the posts suggesting if we disestablish then we will turn into something like China. Lol"

Yes because disestablishment of the church could never be part of a political plan.... as I said marxists blamed religion for communism failing to take off, along with the family unit, national pride etc. It's the Frankfurt school critical theory-

"In 1918, Lukács became minister of culture in Bolshevik Hungary. During this time, Lukács realized that if the family unit and sexual morals were eroded, society could be broken down.

Lukács implemented a policy he titled “cultural terrorism,” which focused on these two objectives. A major part of the policy was to target children’s minds through lectures that encouraged them to deride and reject Christian ethics."

It's playing out today. When the government is the new "god" there are no limits to power. Good luck living a totalitarian society.

As for the next generation don't count on them to fight your corner, they'll be too busy hiding in their safe spaces.

source of morality
I have often pondered that.

A person who has developed the skills to work out the difference between right, wrong and everything in between could be considered moral.

A religious person is taught what god says is right and wrong. So what do they do in a situation where they don't know what god thinks? They haven't developed the skills to work out right and wrong independently so are they then acting immorally?
I get that god is watching you 24/7 to punish you if you make the wrong choice, but how do you know the right choice?
And why is it moral to commit immoral acts as long as you ask for forgiveness afterwards? It seems a very confusing system of morality all based on punishment.

Yes it was Ireland, and I have since left. And I wouldn't be so sure that Christianity has moved on from those dark days
All countries have a shameful past, if you're now in the UK their treatment of the Irish was horrendous. I don't agree that Christianity hasn't moved on, we'll never have a perfect world, but we' re better off than a lot of other countries.

I wouldn't be so sure that Christianity has moved on from those dark days there is still a lot covered up

Indeed

The attempts to pass off atrocities as "a few evil men and women" conveniently ignore the institutional aspects of secrecy, disinformation and all the rest - which is sadly what happens when organisations, religious or not, gain too much power. Individuals within them may well be utterly decent people, but the critical mass of the organisation itself can lead to something very different

And then they wonder why some want them to kept well away from state influence ...

No they aren't, and they have EVERYTHING to do with Christianity.

Fine if you think that ( I don't agree), but let's not pretent that christianity has ownership of these attributes, or somehow invented them.

These attributes of a good working society can be seen in a thousand cultures, even in the animal kingdom.

"I don't agree that Christianity hasn't moved on"

It has moved on, but only because it is catching up with societal (i.e. secular) morals. The church doesn't lead morality, and it normally struggles to catch up with it.

Fresh Are you talking about all Christians in general, because the way you describe it all doesn't sound right, what would a religious person do if they didn't know what God thinks? I don't think anyone would profess to know that. The thing is it's so so easy to pick holes in something you don't agree with. I can't see the point in carrying on with this thread, it's just going round and round in circles.

Missymoo100 You seem to live on a different country from the place I know. England is a mainly secular capitalist democracy where most people want the rule of law and think politicians are all lying bastards We are talking about becoming officially secular not banning religion or adopting Communism.

There are plenty of atheists in countries like Japan, Norway, Australia, France... and I dont see any signs of them becoming communist. Who thinks of the government as the new god

This is the christian ideology that anything not christian is a step towards the devil. ITS NOT.

Im sure that 2000 years ago, there were some nice people about who hadnt needed christianity to know to be nice and moral. There were entire civilizations with morals before christianity even existed

I'm quite sure there wasn't araiwa

Our laws and ethics in the UK certainly don't all derive from christianity. There are major influences from Greece and Rome, and also from Norse systems.

I don't agree that Christianity hasn't moved on

Oh it absolutely has moved on (nowhere near enough IMO) but that is for no other reason than to catch up with the morals of secular society.

I'm quite sure there wasn't

So you're suggesting there was absolutely NO groups of people who had any of the characteristics that you ascribed (quite erroneously) to Christianity before the arrival of said Christianity?

As for the next generation don't count on them to fight your corner
Don't need them to fight my corner, can do that for myself. And they can remake our country to suit themselves, I am sure most of them aren't reflective of the professionally offended we get on MN.

I don't agree that Christianity hasn't moved on
Well of course but you are bias. I note English churches don't performing gay marriages. Irish culture would still rather let a mother die than perform an abortion. Children are still born 'sinful'. Condoms are still banned. Schools are still segregated. Priests are still abusing children, still covering up abuses . Not sure it has moved on to much but thats ok because we dont do it as much as other countries ...

The thing is it's so so easy to pick holes in something you don't agree with
Its easy to pick holes in it because its full of holes, and that is why so many people dont believe in it. Surly the whole point is that if you believe it to be true you either give the answer, or say "I dunno, that does seem weird/contradictory, I will study it more."

The reason most human societies have evolved to follow the morals/principles espoused by Christianity is that humans made up the rules in all the societies and, indeed, in the Bible. Humans have worked out how to cooperate and to ensure best outcomes for themselves. That's why murder's never been considered a good thing by any society, unless in the name of religion (stake burning, Crusades, Christians to the lions) or personal honour (feuds, duels, revenge). For example.

Yes. The 'golden rule' ethical principle 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' is familiar in this culture from the parable of the Good Samaritan , but a similar ethical principle appears in many other cultures, some predating Christianity. Because it is a good simple rule of thumb for living alongside others. Nowadays, we might prefer the Platinum rule 'treat others the way they want to be treated' which requires a bit more thought and empathy.