Australia to drug test welfare recipients

[Carolinesbeanies]

AIBU to totally agree with this?

www.newscientist.com/article/2145603-australia-plans-random-drug-tests-for-people-receiving-welfare/

(Not dumping and running, but Im working a late today and wont be back till late evening. Didnt want to let this article go under the radar!)

Drug testing is used quite widely here in the UK. Our armed forces for example.

Do addicts themselves have any proposals to resolve the vicious circle theyre in?

"We can solve a lot of addiction issues, but not like this."

Just got to the bottom of the thread. Mrs Terry, the issue though surely is, the situation is getting worse and worse, not better and better. Why do you think that is? Do you think the current system is working?

Drug testing is used quite widely here in the UK. Our armed forces for example.

They are not the same as welfare recipients.

Carolinesbeanies Fri 01-Sep-17 08:07:37
"Drug testing is used quite widely here in the UK. Our armed forces for example.

Do addicts themselves have any proposals to resolve the vicious circle theyre in?"

What about the large number of welfare recipients who do not happen to be addicts but who will feel singled out and suspected simply because they happen to have lost their jobs/are carers for severely disabled family members/are ill or disabled?

This is not the same as Armed Forces, because in Armed Forces random drug testing is part of the job and you sign up for it. You don't sign up for having a severely disabled child or having the kind of disability that no employer wants to make adjustment for.

This merging between "recipients of benefits" and "probably addicts" is very worrying. It is part of a discourse that suggests that people who cannot work are probably to blame for their own situation.

There is also a portion of the population who use cannabis for severe chronic pain, not because they are addicts, but because no prescription drugs work. Should they have their benefits taken away? Or be sent to rehab?

Of course I think addicts should accept treatment. But why single out everybody on benefits? Why not have compulsory drugs testing for SAHMs and shop workers and politicians and actors? Or do we imagine that addiction only happens in the ranks of the unemployed?

If it's about tax payers' money, then why not extend it to all public sector workers, all politicians receiving money from public funds, and all recipients of child benefit? Don't the taxpayers have the right to know that the money they pay them is not wasted on drugs and/or the impairing the quality of the work paid for?

^ you're right. It would be their own hard earned money they were spending, not money intended to provide a hard up family with food/clothes/bill money.
It's disgraceful that money is diverted by addicts to fund their habit, if it puts others in a more desperate situation. No amount of 'their money, they can spend it how they please' can excuse those circumstances.

the issue though surely is, the situation is getting worse and worse, not better and better. Why do you think that is?

I have no idea why you think that is, because it isn't true.

People on benefits shouldn't have anything.
They should only walk around in their government issued smocks, eating all meals in their special canteens using their stamps.
Oh, and their smocks must be embroidered with bells so decent people can hear them and therefore be able to avoid the shame of being in the same vicinity.

The current system is not working for people who are addicted and want treatment though. £22 million more cuts to drug treatment are planned by the end of 2017/18.

^ and that's bad, nothing is going to improve until anyone who needs it has good access to effective addiction treatment.

I'm gobsmacked at the number of posters who think it is ok to let people spend benefit money on drugs. Of course it isn't. And in the UK the drug with the biggest amount spent on it is cannabis, I'd love to see benefits dependent on proving you are cannabis free. not only is cannabis the single biggest reason for educational underachievement I have ever come across, and the reason many people are on benefits to start with, it is grown by trafficked slaves in London.

So not only is it responsible for the waste of tax payers money in the education system, it is responsible for keeping teen boys in slavery.

Do you really accept tax payers money being spent propping up this industry, through benefits?

Cannabis smokers frequently argue it isn't addictive anyway, so no problem making them give up then.

I'm gobsmacked at the number of posters who think it is ok to let people spend benefit money on drugs. Of course it isn't

No body should be spending money on drugs in an ideal world. But people do. Is it really worth spending thousands, possibly millions to detect a few?

Some people self medicate, either in conjunction with prescription drugs or instead of.

If someone has cancer and cannabis helps them feel better, or to eat or to not be sick I'm not sure I'm in a place to judge.

Also how reliable are these tests? The US ones famously picked up 'heroin' which was in fact poppy seeds on a bagel.

Lots of people on benefits are in ill health and therefore take prescription drugs - how can you tell the prescribed drug from one bought in a pub?

The big problem I have with this is that it has already been shown multiple times not to work. Because the vast majority of people on benefits are not drug addicts. Because they are, you know, poor.

The ideal of benefit recipient = likely addict just disgusts me.

But people do. Is it really worth spending thousands, possibly millions to detect a few?

anything that assists in shutting down the horrific and shameful Uk cannabis industry is a good thing, as far as I can see.

Some people self medicate "self medicate" is just a phrase to make taking illegal drugs sound more respectable, you could call anything "self medicating" it is meaningless.

If someone has cancer and cannabis helps them feel better, or to eat or to not be sick I'm not sure I'm in a place to judge. at the cost of the education and health and life chances of teenage slaves?

Also how reliable are these tests? The US ones famously picked up 'heroin' which was in fact poppy seeds on a bagel. any athlete knows not to eat poppyseeds! They are banned in themselves.

God I wish cannabis was the single biggest reason for educational underachievement round here. We could all just get off the weed (we're supposedly on) and everything would change for generations of underachievers.

Cannabis has nothing to do with it and our educational underachievement has way more complicated reasons than that for most of us and our kids suffering it.

These sort of schemes will change many things but not the way you want them to. The desperate who wont go to foodbank already buy food from people who don't hesitate, giving them ready cash for what they want and a crap rate of exchange for those who cant physically get there, and or wont.

Currently a tax payer = good decent person whose owed something
Currently not a tax payer = scrounging, cheating lowlife, lets now add likely drug addict to the list.

any athlete knows not to eat poppyseeds! They are banned in themselves.

Athlete =/= benefits recipient. And that's a slightly bizarre response. I'd also say that I had zero idea that poppy seeds were so terrible until just now and I don't think of myself as super ignorant.

copperbeech and so the controlling of benefit recipients begins - they are never, ever, ever allowed to eat lemon and poppyseed cake in case they come up positive in a drugs test. Well, that's a small sacrifice to make if you are completely lacking in human decency and compassion. I'm sure there are a few more things that we can disallow for benefit recipients - as posters upthread have said, why should they be allowed biscuits? Treats are for taxpayers, aren't they?

I'd also say that I had zero idea that poppy seeds were so terrible until just now and I don't think of myself as super ignorant. but if you are a competitive athlete, you will know which common substances are banned.

God I wish cannabis was the single biggest reason for educational underachievement round here.

well, I am in London, and in my experience, it is here. Obviously not the only reason, but certainly the single biggest reason.

The problem with cutting off benefits is that you cut off benefits to children.

No matter what you think of their parents - children deserve to eat.

But what if the benefits are spent on drugs or another addiction rather than on food/home for the children, regardless? The children are still not getting to eat properly.

I can see why introducing a card for use of food etc. has been bought of to try and solve this issue. Problem is, is that they have used a crude tool that is just too blunt to make any real positive difference.

well, I am in London, and in my experience, it is here. Obviously not the only reason, but certainly the single biggest reason

Fascinating. Evidence with links, please.

Meth is a horrendous issue here (not only in the region, but the country as a whole) and something that has to be dealt with but I'm not convinced that cutting benefits and stigmatizing every benefit recipient within a test area as 'incapable of managing their money and needing to be restricted from buying alcohol or tobacco or gambling' is the way to go.

What we need to do is reinstate all the further education places that have been lost over the past few years, increase apprenticeship places and find someway to increase social housing stock and reduce private rental places.

By cutting benefits all that will happen is that crime rates will rise, as realistically there aren't enough rehab places and if the government goes ahead with plans to suspend payments while waiting for a clear drugs tests there will be no other way to get money.

Can you imagine being on welfare and being told you can only shop in certain places, in certain towns? No longer able to choose to support local shops and have freedom of choice to have food deliveries so you have to go to the supermarket. Or no longer able to save money by buying from eBay or amazon?

I'm more than capable of managing my money (granted I'd like more but then who wouldn't!) and it takes a lot of careful shopping to be able to stick to a low budget - I honestly can't see how it would be possible with the restrictions of the Basics card and I don't see why I should have to suffer because the govt has decided this is the only way to tackle the drugs problems without actually putting the support infrastructure in place first.

Gosh I'm torn on this one. While I see that this would never have the desired outcome I have to agree with the principle. A member of my family has a problem with addiction. We tried very hard to help him (he was homeless/jobless) but there's only so long I could tolerate watching him spend my hard earned money on his vice (alcohol) knowing that that money was coming away from my children and we had to cut him off. I don't think many people would disagree with this decision however this is basically what we're talking about here just on a larger scale with my taxes.

but if you are a competitive athlete, you will know which common substances are banned

But we're not talking about athletics. We're talking about common substances which give false positives on a drug test which you support requiring from benefits claimants. Are you saying that to claim tax credits, or a pension, or ESA, or PIP you should automatically know that you can't eat a poppy seed bagel and if you don't, hard luck. You deserve to lose your benefits.

Mrs Terry, the issue though surely is, the situation is getting worse and worse, not better and better. Why do you think that is? Do you think the current system is working?

The current system is underfunded and patchy. What we need is:

1. A proper in-patient rehab bed for anyone that asks for when when they ask for one.
2. Out-patient well-funded and available alcohol and drug counselling for those that ask for it.
3. Stop the supply of people who feel they need drugs and alcohol. Actually deal with child sex abuse, other abuse and neglect. It is where a lot of addiction comes from.
4. Stop the consequences of drug addiction. Safe injection sites, needle exchanges, decriminalize, test and give out drugs where necessary. Clean, safe, dosed drugs.
5. Stop all the stigmatization.

If you want to test people or take substances from tax recipients, start with the publicly funded bar at the House of Commons. Test the BBC stars for coke. Any people earning less than about 35K (who are net recipients of taxation 'benefits' in the UK) you all get tested too. You're 'taking' from us tax payers. You don't get to use the Courts, hospitals, schools or anything else 'our' money pays for until you stop using alcohol and drugs. And poppy-seed bagels, some cough medicine and all sorts of other things. You'll cope.