AIBU to think that "blacking up" is never acceptable?

[CoolRunnings2017]

story here

I appreciate that the people on the float probably didn't mean to offend, but surely common sense would tell you that this wasn't in good taste?

^I think those things are^ more an equivalent to blacking up, yes. Unless you mean moobs, or the few men who actually have a naturally high voice.

I'm genuinely gobsmacked that anyone would take offence to a man dressing up as a woman. Genuinely.

I can only assume that yet again, MN is a parallel universe.

How is it racist , it's fancy dress. It's not done to mock . PC gone mad.

so Lenny Henry whited up in something. there was a film, White chicks or something wher 2 black guys whited up.

thats okay then is is? FFS.

and Kim kardash dressing up as a white woman Jackie O.

my black friends thinks the cool runnings thing is funny, not offended at all.

it IS pc gone mad.

Oh wait. Im stupid and uneducated arent i?

"It's not the equivalent of someone dressing up as a Nazi. It would be the equivalent of a non-Jew dressing up as a Jew. I am sure plenty of the extras in Schindlers List who played Jews in the holocaust were actually not Jewish."

Non-Jewish characters playing Jews in Schindlers list may not be offensive, but a non-jew putting on a fake big hooked nose, a fake wig with long sidelocks, and a big bag of fake money while dancing to a song about how much Jews love money etc would be pretty offensive, yes.

disagree. I don't think it is racist unless the purpose is to offend. Otherwise nobody could ever dress up or portray a character who is not the same race or religion. Lots of actors play people from different races or religions. Would people be as offended by a black person playing a white person in a film? What about a Christian playing a Jew or a Spanish catholic playing a Muslim or vice versa. I think everything is about intent. For example, if you are a white actor in a regional theatre group where there are no black actors, yet the character is black, then someone white will play that character and put on make-up to make them look black. There is no negative or offensive intent, just as there would be no offensive intent if a theatre group in Jamaica puts on a play where one of the actors plays the Merchant of Venice and therefore plays a white/Middle Eastern Jew.

this ^^

I'm genuinely gobsmacked that anyone would take offence to a man dressing up as a woman. Genuinely.

You don't think it is offensive if a member of the oppressor class dresses up in the clothes that the oppressor class virtually forced the oppressed class to wear for thousands of years?
(The Bible already forbids crossdressing, and while that meant something different in Biblical times, patriarchies everywhere enforced strict rules on how women have to dress so men can tell who the humans and the subhumans are at one glance)

You seriously cannot see that there might be something wrong with that?

Not to mention the fact that men who dress up as women often imitate the mannerisms that patriarchy forces on women, and parody women's biological traits, such as high voices.

It's not the equivalent of someone dressing up as a Nazi. It would be the equivalent of a non-Jew dressing up as a Jew. I am sure plenty of the extras in Schindlers List who played Jews in the holocaust were actually not Jewish.

There's no dressing up required, because German Jews don't look any different from other Germans. You wouldn't even know whether to be offended without doing your research beforehand.

What is offensive is if non-Jews dress up as Jews outside of a movie and wear a yellow star, which is a symbol the nazis forced Jews to wear.

If the aim is to offend, mock or denigrate then yes, I think it is racist.

However, I wouldn't have an issue with someone using makeup to darken their skin to dress up as a particular character. Or to lighten it for that matter.

Vestal - I may be misunderstanding you but are you saying that you find it offensive if a man wears a dress just because once upon a time women were obliged to wear dresses? You do know that women these days voluntarily wear dresses don't you? Personally I don't - I voluntarily wear men's trousers (comfort & better pockets) - I'm probably breaking some rule of yours there by dressing like one of the oppressors or cross-dressing against the Bible's say so or something.
(Female impersonators tend to walk better in high heels than me - I'm always impressed at how they do it)

QuiQuaiQuod: "Oh wait. Im stupid and uneducated arent i"

That's not for me to say, but you certainly don't seem to know how to use punctuation or capital letters correctly.

For example, if you are a white actor in a regional theatre group where there are no black actors, yet the character is black, then someone white will play that character and put on make-up to make them look black
killjoy nobody has done this for decades. You just play the part with your own skin colour because the context and the words make it clear you are playing a person of a different race.
I've been truly gobsmacked to be having this argument with friends on Facebook today (also rural Wales - in fact very near the carnival in question). I can't believe in 2017 people still can't see this and think their right to have a laugh is more important than the feelings of others. It's such a simple thing, not putting on black make up. It wouldn't affect the effectiveness of the costume - why do something which is generally accepted to be offensive in itself? And being in rural Wales shouldn't be an excuse. It's part of the modern world. I know these things and I live here.

Some blokes recently dressed up as female nurses for a charity bed push and the hospital refused the money as they said it was offensive.

I think people saying "is it okay if a black person paints their face white" is missing the point.

Blackface was used by white actors because black people were forbidden from being on the stage. And almost all of the black people being portrayed were mocked on stage or portrayed as villainous or stupid.

That's why it's wrong. Because of the history. Same way dressing as a Nazi is wrong.

so Lenny Henry whited up in something. there was a film, White chicks or something wher 2 black guys whited up.

thats okay then is is? FFS

Please tell me more about how white people throughout history have been made into caricatures. I'd be glad to hear about it. "Whiteface" is not a thing and not comparable to blackface.

cardibach is right about stage productions. If, for eg, Othello was being staged and no black actor was available for the role (not that there is an oversupply of black lead roles out there) there is no way the white actor would black up for it! I think Othello was staged fairly recently with black actors in the role of white characters and they did not "white up" either.

BenLui Halloween has gone way beyond Witches Ghouls and Demons...

People dress up and a multitude of characters now for the Event...

So 3 blokes have blacked up and played a horrible song that mocks black people and people are defending it? Bloody hell, it is 2017 isn't it?

For anyone who thinks this is the same as a black person whiting up, watch

Blackface was used by white actors because black people were forbidden from being on the stage. And almost all of the black people being portrayed were mocked on stage or portrayed as villainous or stupid.
That's why it's wrong. Because of the history.
But that's not (generally) why people do it now. And that's the difference. It's not carrying on a racist act, it's turning round and saying "actually we think this black character / actor / etc. is worth portraying and the fact that we're white is irrelevant". Otherwise where are you going to stop? Can a white man never employ a black man (or worse still a black woman) in case it's harking back to the days when whites had black servants? Of course not - they get the job because they're the best person for it regardless of sex, colour, race, religion, sexuality etc. We've moved on. We don't forget, we just accept that the past had mistakes and we don't want to repeat them. And we work on treating everyone the same. Not worse, and not better because we have to make up for the past. The same. That's how we move forward and eliminate any sort of ism.

They were playing a hideously racist song, that is not showing admiration!

Fgs people, you don't black up, you just don't do it.

Nike nothing in your post explains why anyone would need to black up.

Apparently it's a way of showing admiration

Sometimes it is. Morris sides who follow the Border Morris tradition will often blacken their faces, this is a throw back to farm labourers and fisherman from the 16th and 17th centuries (if I remember correctly) who were were disguising themselves because it was either illegal or frowned upon by the employers to beg for money and dancing Morris counting as begging. Individuals who were recognised would find it hard to gain employment in future.

I'm not talking about examples where they're playing racist songs & you damn well know it. That hadn't been mentioned at the start of this thread. Obviously that's wrong - I'm talking about the putting on of make-up to actually appear like the person you're trying to imitate. You wouldn't pretend you were Eddie the Eagle Edwards without putting on thick glasses would you? No-one would know who you were. So if you're pushing a bobsled & white it's not going to be immediately apparent that you're trying to impersonate the Jamaican bobsled team. It's called acting - you put on make-up, wigs, facial hair, costume etc. to play a part. If you're young and are playing an old person to put on make-up to make you look old. In the exact same way if you're white and are playing a black character or vice versa then you need to put on the appropriate make-up. It's not harking back to days when it was acceptable to mock someone, it's recognising that actually there are black people who you consider as worthy of portraying as white ones.
At the end of the day you can think what you want. All I know is that I treat black & white people the same - it's just different shades of the same skin.

indulgent they are showing admiration to their Morris Dancer ancestors, not someone from a race that their ancestors would have kept as slaves.

I noticed that as someone said upthread a lot of them are dropping this. I saw lots of dark green face paint used at our local folk festival. Morris dancers are not trying to make themselves look like a black person, they are dressing up as their ancestors.

Even without the offensive music this is such a stupid thing to do and I really doubt it's because they admire 3 actors from a film made over a decade ago.

It's not carrying on a racist act, it's turning round and saying "actually we think this black character / actor / etc. is worth portraying and the fact that we're white is irrelevant".

I don't think that even the most naive person could actually believe this. The fact that a white person is blacking up can never express admiration, even in the unlikely event of admiration being the person's conscious intention. You can't denude an action of its racist history and declare it means what you now say it means, and to do so in this context smacks of white privilege and whitesplaining.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/23/health-warning-why-the-sexy-nurse-stereotype-is-no-laughing-matter

Because someone mentioned it earlier, here's a Guardian piece on the thinking behind the Shropshire NHS trust refusing the money raised by the men dressed as 'sexy nurses' (red lipstick, suspenders, visible push-up bras) and why the stereotype is harmful. I assume the conscious intent of the men involved was not to denigrate nurses, but nonetheless they were perpetuating a harmful stereotype that sees nurses regularly get sexually harassed and treated as objects in their workplace.