to think this is a great way of getting top A-Level success rates - I can't believe other schools haven't cottoned on

[orlantina]

Simply don't let the pupils in Y12 who aren't going to get As not do year 13.

Then you are looking good for a high success rate and can market yourself as a great school.

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

Unbelievable the school did this...

All the grammar schools round here do this - make the "weaker" B / C candidates register to take them at the local 6th form college. Not right but not shocking - schools have been gaming the system for years. Thats the problem with making education so sytematic I suppose.

These parents who are complaining chose a highly selective school for their children at age 16, if not 11, and they and their children all knew before they started 6th form that if they didn't get the grades in Year 12 they could be asked to leave, so I think it's a bit late to now be calling it an exam factory. I wonder if one of the aggrieved parents is a Guardian journalist? I have a DD/ DS in the 6th form at St Olaves - taking 5 AS levels and getting top grades in all of them PLUS being bi or tri-lingual, winning poetry or chess competitions, having Grade 8 on a musical instrument and being a fantastic sportsperson is not at all unusual. About a third each year go on to Oxbridge or medical degrees, I'm not saying this to be boastful but to show the students are abnormally clever and hard working, to be honest many of them are total geeks who would be bored stiff and/or torn to shreds in a 'normal' school. St Olave's is a school for students who are very very bright, adore learning and will be top of their chosen field in the future. So if these complaining students achieved lower than 3 Bs in Year 12, whether because that was the best they could do or through laziness, they will be stressed out and not able to keep up with the speed/depth of teaching and it is not the right school for them.

I've just realised the school in the link was St Olaves - that's exactly the on I was thinking off without clicking the link! That and another top grammar in the area. It's a well known fact and I have direct knowledge of it hapenning at both. I'm sure the other grammars in the area do it too. Not sure the indies are so ruthless as they aren't as visciously selective to start with, or are they just better at weeding out before then and choosing who they let into 6th form?

I have a DD/ DS in the 6th form at St Olaves - taking 5 AS levels and getting top grades in all of them PLUS being bi or tri-lingual, winning poetry or chess competitions, having Grade 8 on a musical instrument and being a fantastic sportsperson is not at all unusual

How would you have felt if your DC was asked to leave after a year - even though they had been accepted into Y12 but failed to reach the high standards expected?

frankiestein Do you honestly think that a C at GCSE now is similar to one from. 28 years ago? (GCSE isn't 39 years old until ?next year).
A child getting a C in biology has no capacity to attain a pass at A level, I doubt anyone with C would manage maths, physics, chemistry passes at A level either. Probably a C in English could get a D or E in English Lang/lit if they work their socks off!
Yes, in general the slide is a grade.

So really the fact that they boast of such high grades has nothing to do with the teaching but more to do with super selection and culling so they only select the pupils who will get high grades?

Their 6th form entry requirements are extremly high so anyone that got into the 6th form is clearly bright. Maybe they just had a bad few weeks or something shitty happen in their lives, I don't think any decent educational establishment should chuck them out before they even have had a chance to prove themeselves in the actual exam.

I hope these kids go on to get all A*s, which I'm sure they will now after all this, if this didn't make them determined to prove them wrong I don't know what would. It would have made me devote the entire next year of my life to it. Which I effectively did when I got Bs in my A level mocks and ended up getting As.

What is St Olaves proposingto do with the 30 odd free places created by the children they've booted out? Can they just leave the places unfilled? Not many people will be looking for Y13 places will they, or are they planning to try and poach the best students from other schools?

orlantina I would have been disappointed but probably not surprised as there is regular and rigorous testing and feedback to students and parents all through Year 12. And we knew at the start of Year 12 the standard expected to continue to Year 13. I certainly wouldn't have tried to take the Governing Body to Court.

copper You're missing my point about BTECs and D* grades. I wouldn't suggest for a moment that they're easier than A-levels. Just a different type of intelligence. Some kids who struggle with A-levels and the examination system can massively achieve at the BTEC system. They're not less intelligent because they couldn't succeed so well at A-levels. We have to come away from this, it's unfair and gives kids glass ceilings.
I'm going to bow out now as our arguments are disrupting the ops original thread.

I don't believe you hujublen
There are many reasons why children under perform that are legitimate - are you saying you would go without a peep if your child was ill on the day of exam ?
The school doesn't discriminate on the cause they would be out

TBH orlantina I think that unless you've taught the super bright you can't say that St Olaves isn't offering excellent teaching.
It really is bloody hard work teaching extremely able kids. They don't all behave impeccabley, work hard and do as you expect. They test at every turn, they have massive expectations of your capability of a teacher and you have to teach in a totally different style than you do other abilities.
I'm not necessarily saying it's harder than teaching other students, more that it's just not "easier".
No teaching of any school, year group or ability is easy, each has its difficulties Andy pitfalls, they're just different - there's no such thing as a school that's easy to teach in!

I think I need to turn autocorrect off

I would have been disappointed but probably not surprised as there is regular and rigorous testing and feedback to students and parents all through Year 12

Would you have a problem if they got rid of all pupils who aren't going to get A*?

Maybe they should get rid of all pupils who don't get an offer at Oxbridge?

Then they can claim that 100% of all pupils go to Oxbridge?

@haskell - no I don't know - that's why I was asking - what do you mean by 'the slide is a grade'?

(do I really deserve the emphasis on "honestly" - why wouldnt the relative scale values be the same? I'm not suggesting any equivalence of content just in apportionment of grades across the bell curve)

Frankiestein- I'm just wondering how many a level students you know doing a levels now, or rather whether you were basing your statement on when you took yours.
My typo (39) was supposed to be 30, sorry!
A pupil getting a C at GCSE is not a highly academic pupil, and isn't suited to the rigour of a levels, particularly now they're reformed. That's nothing to he ashamed of- there are many technical, vocational etc qualifications available for study, there are apprenticeships too. Someone with a C average APS would probably be more suited to maybe a BTEC combined with an a level in a less demanding subject. Or a technical course, something that can help them onto the next stage of what it is they want to do. A C APS at GCSE really isn't someone that should be aiming for an academic study at university. Why do people see that as the only thing worth doing?
It is unfair to expect this of young people.

Interesting BBC article on the subject

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41098710

More from the Guardian

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/30/mps-attack-ejection-of-underperforming-sixth-formers

In their words: a former St Olaves’ student, who asked to remain anonymous

“I didn’t get the minimum three Bs. They told me to speak to the assistant head. At that point I was worrying. They told me I’d have to sign a contract if I wanted to be able to continue into year 13. The contract said that the school would have the right to instantly kick me out at any point in year 13 if my performance dropped below a B grade, and I’d be closely monitored.

“I left in tears, partly because of the grades and partly due to the utter lack of humanity and sympathy that was shown to me. Mental health wise, there’s so much stress on people, you can see it in some people’s faces. They’re weighed down. Some of the teachers do try to sympathise.

“No wonder the school is near the top of the league tables. The headmaster needs to realise that the school would be nothing without the pupils. If you only take in academically brilliant students then it’s obviously going to ensure your grades and stats are good. If a school takes you on, it’s their duty to take you through the years until the end no matter what your result.”

Following the Guardian’s reports, MPs across the political spectrum expressed concern about the practice and its impact on students. Orpington’s Conservative MP, Jo Johnson, said he had raised the issue with the education minister as well as the head of St Olave’s.

“St Olave’s is a highly selective school and I obviously have no problem with having a GCSE entry requirement for a sixth form – but once pupils are in on that basis, it is surely for the school to push them to do well, not to throw them out (unless their behaviour is bad).

It a funny thing, people want league tables so they can judge but want schools to be inclusive and good results.

people want schools to be like the real world yet complain when they remove those that do not perform well.

I don't know any students - and it'll be a while before my daughter hits a-levels - I was asking for clarification.

As I stated a C used to be an average grade and possession of a C certainly didn't preclude doing the subject at a-level (I had a gce C in physics that turned into an A at a-level - never particularly liked physics - I wanted to do chemistry and physics came in the mix)

What i understand you to be saying is that now a C grade at GCSE is well below average and there is an expectation that grades will drop at A-level relative to GCSE leaving aside the implication that an A at GCSE implies a B at a-level

if that is the case it justifies the criteria for entry to year 12 - which I had perceived as overly strict.

However nothing justifies a cull at the end of year 12 - poor results then mean the school have stuffed up their assessment a mere 9 months earlier and speaks more to their inability to add value than any failing on the part of the students

frankestein do you mean poor results as in B grades as per the op (not that I believe that's a poor result), or do you mean U and E grades?
If it's the latter I do think that in some circumstances the school is justified in telling students that them continuing with A-levels isn't in anyone's best interests. Student's work ethic can change in 9 months, the jump from GCSE to A-level is huge and some students who crammed and flee by the seat of their pants in Yr 11 find that doesn't work in sixth form. They may not be suited to the way A-levels work. A school would be letting the student down if they let them carry on only to fail again. Their A-level grades have to then be declared for all UCAS and most job applications. If you get caught omitting them you can end up being fired or losing your place for gross dismissal.

Flee = flew

Ds1 got 3As and 6Bs and AB and C and is not going to a fantastic university

Its so sad that the attitude seems to be anything less than an A is a fail

When did it stop being about enjoying learning

And not necessarily in most of RL or even most of mumsnet , i know i am exaggerating

Some students find A levels harder than they expect, get their heads turned by the presence of the opposite sex (a lot of grammars are single sex before sixth form). It is not unusual, also, for some students who are bright to do very little work in year 12, especially now there are linear courses with only internal exams. The problem is that it is hard to retrieve that situation in year 13. If they're thinking of Oxbridge, it's generally too late to start working hard in September of year 13.

No school wants to get rid of year 12s for no reason but ones that are asked to leave have often had chance after chance!

Universities will not retain students who are underachieving indefinitely either, so in the long run it could be useful to get a wake up call at 17 in case the student isn't truly suited to years more academic study.

Interesting. Found this from 4 years ago

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html

Anthony Seldon, master of Wellington College, has little time for this argument. “Children have extremely long holidays when they should be stepping off the gas but when they are at school they should work,” he says. “Schools everywhere have become much more exam focused and that is mostly a very good thing.”
Dr Seldon will also occasionally refuse to readmit students after poor AS-level marks, although none of this year’s cohort failed to make the grade. “Often it is only once you’ve begun a course that you can tell [if a child will succeed]. Schools can only move at certain rates and you can often get concerns from parents and other students if there are people in the class who are holding it back.”

Not all teachers agree with this approach, however. Bernard Trafford, a former chairman of the Headmasters’ and Headmistresses’ Conference, says in his five years as headmaster of Newcastle’s Royal Grammar School he has never asked a child to leave after poor results. “I like to think we stick with anyone who we have accepted into the school,” he explains. “If we misjudge it and they are not quite up to our pace, we live with that and we support them.

“They are doing four years of exams – GCSEs for two summers and then their A-levels. It is monstrous, so we have to be here to help them when they have bad phases during those four years. I think young people have the right to try and to fail.