To not pay this childminding bill

[Ellie6578]

My one year old goes to a childminder 4 days a week whilst I'm working since October last year, I've had no issues so far.

My dd visits her dad for 2 weeks every 6 weeks, so she doesn't go to the childminder during these times (he lives up north and I'm down south) however I understand that I still have to pay for her missed days in order to secure her place (her dad pays for these 2 weeks of missed time) and that's fine as my contract states I have to pay for 4 days a week even if my dd doesn't attend.

She came back this week after only 4 days of being with her dad unlike the normal 14 days. This was because her dad had to go to Germany for a few days for work and my little girl really would not settle with his mum.

I messaged my childminder and said my dd had come home early and would she be able to have her tomorrow as normal. My childminder stated she could not have her for another 4 days as she had taken in another child for childcare which took up my daughters space. Ok I thought, my mum took time off work to look after her.

I got the invoice yesterday and I've been charged for those 4 days even though I was told my daughter couldn't go in because she had filled her space! So if I paid for it, the Childminder's earning double for half the work. Aibu not to pay for those 4 days?!

Antinvasion

Cm was open for business.
OP was paying for her services to keep a space open for her child for those 2 weeks.
Cm sold that place to someone else and refused ops child while still charging for it.
OP is not some stroppy parent.
If the cm had arranged something with the kids who were usually there on the first day but couldnt take the ops child due to ticket availability or similar that would have been understandable but to be unable to take child for 4 days is different altogether.

Antinvasion - I don't think a childminder should be at a parent's beck and call, however if you are going to charge for a service, you need to be prepared to provide it. Childminders aren't the parents' employees, they are running a business. They are always entitled to say no to parents, but then after saying no to looking after the parents' children, they can't then try to charge for looking after the parents' children. In no other business would it be ok to charge for a service after failing to provide it.

The normal practice for childminders (around here at least) is that if the Childminder is providing the service, but the parents don't send their DC (for whatever reason) then the childminder charges for contracted hours, as they were available to work. If the childminder is not available/unable to provide the childcare service (for whatever reason), then the childminder doesn't charge for the contracted hours.

So if the childminder shuts her business for a fortnight to go on holiday, or is sick and unable to care for children, or even in this case, has no places available due to taking on extra work, they can't charge for those hours.

The childminder in this case was unable to provide the service. She shouldn't have charged. It doesnt matter why she was unable to provide the service.

FFS this is so straightforward. The parent said they would not require the childminder's service for those two weeks. The childminder did not say to the parent I'm unable to look after your child for these two weeks, in which case the parent wouldn't have to pay. It was during that period when that the parent changed their mind about requiring childcare. It's the attitude of some parents that they think they can chop and change at the last minute or without notice. Childminders don't sit there twiddling their thumbs looking at little johnny's chair when little johnny doesn't turn up. They fucking get on with something else, or this case take another child.

Imagine you go to a car park pay £2 for two hours, but leave after one hour. No you don't get a part refund and no bollards aren't put out to reserve a space for your car just because you paid. And no the car park doesn't give the next driver who enters a free hours parking, just because somebody else has paid. This may not be the most relevant analogy but neither are hotels, or even nurseries.

It's the school holidays and I'm sure there are plenty of parents that may need childcare during the holidays when they can't get time off work, but during term time the kids attend after school clubs etc and do not need childminders. Also what skittykitty said regarding quotas.

The op paid over the days her DD didn't need childcare because the CM wanted that in order to ensure the place. But the CM did not ensure the place and still charged for days the OP needed childcare but the CM couldn't provide it.

I have to say that many of the posts on this thread have given me a very dim view of childminders. Grabby, deceitful and contempt for their customers.

Those don't strike me as very good characteristics to run a service business

Oh and I'm sure there's lots of other parents needing childcare, but then once caught out not being able to look after her regular mindee for a new child, the childminder shouldn't charge for the time. As it was the op got free care from her mother, but most in this situation would have to pay someone else, paying twice for care isn't on.

If the CM was charging half rates to hold the place for the OP, that would be different, but charging full rate then telling the OP, not her one off client that they can't have childcare, and then still charging for a service they didn't provide is cheeky. Or more likely a mistake.

(In your car park comparison, it's like arriving to your regular parking place, finding it full so you have to find somewhere else to park, but still getting charged.)

Tanith, you can't possibly say that your contract stands up in court unless every aspect of your contract has been tested in court. I somehow doubt that is the case.

And Boney, the OP does not need legal advice. She needs to speak to the CM to try and resolve it. If the CM doesn't budge then I'd be going somewhere else and if the CM wants to try small claims then she could try it on. Even if the OP loses she won't be paying much for costs (less than legal advice would cost anyway), but I very much doubt she would lose.

Jiggly - most aren't to be fair, some do seem to forget that while they aren't the employee of the parents, the parents are their customers and customers can just take their custom elsewhere/complain about the quality of the service they receive.

Grabby, deceitful and contempt for their customers.

Yes, because you can make sweeping generalisations about every single childminder based on one thread on MN.

I'm a highly trained professional, thanks very much, and I'm honest to boot.

Antinvasion- another completely irrelevant comparison, with the car park.

The Op wasn't expecting a refund. Her First post actually implies she wasn't even overly put out about the cm not being available, presumably because she knew it was fairly short notice. She clearly was not assuming the cm was at her beck and call at short notice. What she wasnt happy about was the fact that the cm had sold the place to someone else and then had the nerve to still charge her.

Maybe you're right Kitten. I haven't counted them but I've been really shocked by some of the attitudes on this thread.

I'm sure parents are occasionally a pain - I'm self-employed and my clients irritate me quite often. But I accept that's the nature of my business.

I certainly don't feel as pissed off about them as some of the posters on this thread seem to be. Not least because they're my income!

whatsthecomingoverthehill

And Boney, the OP does not need legal advice

Any legal advice that she received may or may not back up her position (and it has to be better than strangers on a forum), and it may well be the CM that decides to take the OP to court for breach of contract.

The OP may well be able to sort this in a meeting with the CM, but I am trying to counter the misinformation about her legal position, which we can't really comment on because we haven't seen the contract.

Light the blue touch paper and retire, OP, why don't you?

Sod that! I would happily pay to keep my child's place but if his place has been given to someone else then what exactly are you paying for?
I would diplomatically email the nursery manager and explain that there must have been a mix up because that space wasn't saved for your son so you expected that week to be deducted.

*CM not nursery

@skittykitty - I didn't say all. But lots of CMs have defended the CM's position and it's utter bollocks.

The comments I've read have tried to explain where the CM is coming from rather than defend it and have tried to explain about contracts and policies, both of which are set by the individual CM. They've also tried to advocate sitting down and speaking to the CM about it. I haven't seen any contempt for customers, greediness, or deceit.

Your childminder is trying it on. You're paying for a space but she gave the space away and still expects you to pay

The number of people that seem to think childminders should be a parents' beck and call...hmm
I'm a cm. and I obviously don't think I should be at anyone's beck and call, but I think it's dreadful practise to be charging a parent to reserve a place and then sell it to some else meaning the first family can not access their childcare. This doesn't mean the first family are expecting me to be at their beck and call, it just means they are expecting me to do the work they are paying me for.
If I am working and the children book holiday, I don't make expensive plans, just in case the plans change. If I need/want a day off, I book it off and make plans for those days.
The cm who gets annoyed about wasted food/activities-yes it's annoying that money has been wasted on food to go in the bin (I hate waste of anything-which is more to do with the waste of the worlds resources than anything else), but the parent has already paid for those activities and food, so really you can't grumble that you've had to pay for them. (If you have it in your contract that children only pay for the hours they use and they don't turn up, that's different, but then I would tell you to change your contract to something more sustainable).
Op, I think the childminder is being really cheeky, I suggest you have a chat with her, explain your side and make sure she knows how unhappy you are. If she insists on you paying, I would be looking for another childminder and making sure she knows it's because she is grabby and not fulfilling her side of the contract.

I could go back through the thread skitty but maryann has done. It's of tiger hard work.

Also it depends on what this fee is labelled as in the contract as to whether it is enforceable.

If it's labelled as a retainer, i.e., a payment to hold the space open then the place must be available for use as/when needed and the CM shouldn't have filled it.

If it is labelled as a deposit, i.e., a payment to guarantee a space from a future date, then the CM is under no obligation to keep the space free prior to that date. For example, child is due to attend from 1st July to 1st August, then is away until 14th August and will resume childcare on 15th August. A deposit is paid to guarantee there will be a space available from 15th August. CM can do as she wishes with that space from 1st August to 15th August.

This is why OP needs to check her contract and have a discussion with the CM.

FFS I don't have my glasses on!

Most of the hard work. No tigers necessary

OK. But it depends on how the contract is worded. If it is specifically a place holding fee and the place would remain available, then I concede that it's wrong. But if it's a case of if the parent choses for the child to not attend and is still required to pay, then no, as the parent had already stated that they didn't want childcare, then I think it's reasonable to expect that the childminder can't or won't take the child a short notice. For whatever reason.

I am a childminder and i charge people for spaces if they are on holiday etc as i am open and cant tale anyone else if you need a space for your child at anytime. So if u tx me and said shes coming tomorrow the space is there. If ahe is charging you for a space then your child should have a space if ahes taken someone else then she doeant have a space and you cant be charged for it if you are in scotland call the scottish childminding assosations helpline for clarity butdont pay the bill

There is no incentive for parents to give any notice of being away if the CM is going to charge anyway but not retain the place. Why on earth would you if there was a chance, however slim, that you would need to. If the CM wants to be able to make use of that space then they need to offer something in return, e.g. say that cancellations will be subject to the full fee unless she is able to fill the space, in which case only say half the fee would be due. That way there is an incentive from both sides - the parents will give notice on the hope that the space is filled so they can save something and the CM wants to fill the space so they can earn a bit more.