There will be no progress until we name the problem

[TinyRick]

worldnewstrust.com/there-will-be-no-progress-until-we-name-the-problem-mickey-z

AIBU to think this article should be shared far and wide?

There is a real problem with Male Violence being swept under the carpet and not addressed fully on news sites and papers.

If we don't say what it actually plainly is then we can't address the real problem.

Tinyrick those over-mothering MILs you speak of are not 'mothering' they are dysfunctional and modeling dysfunctional relationships. That's different.

I know of what I speak. I was raised by one and so was DH.

Absofrigginlootly

Whilst I can appreciate that expressing breastmilk and giving it to the father to feed the baby, does the job of nutrition, but might not facilitate the mother child bond, I think it's interesting that you said this devalues the job of motherhood.

It might just be the way you put it across. Because I think it would enhance the father child relationship.

But asking men to share the caregiving, does not devalue the job. Not only does it not devalue it intrinsically, it will actually add value from a societal level. Men doing something always makes it increase in value in the eyes of a patriarchal society.

I don't think there are many people who could pick an effective hole in the theory that because women breastfeed, the bond that forms is valuable.

I disagree that this one-on-one relationship needs to last longer than six months to a year.

But somehow, it lasts a lifetime. To the detriment of women. And men.

I can't remember who said it, but when a man is on his deathbed, he rarely says I wish I had spent more time at work.

I've been a feminist for a pretty long time now. Every so often I hear 'feminists say that SAHMs are letting the side down.' I have never ever once ever heard any feminist say this, ever. In a feminist context, it is utter nonsense. And yet I still hear it, over and over. Why??? Who are these people going around spouting such idiocy? Because they're not feminists.

I think it might be because that's what the people around them say, sadly. I've never heard feminists say it either, but I've seen it quoted in books written by conservative Christian women, who have doubtless heard it from other people themselves.

In other words, it's an urban myth.

Also, before feminism, mothers were basically slaves owned by men. They had no vote, no right to property, no rights over their own children, no right not to be raped, no access to education or employment, no maternity leave, minimal and misogynistic maternity care - they were essentially subhuman in the eyes of the law, breeding stock. Feminism changed all that. And yet feminism is seen as devaluing motherhood? I can see how some feminist theory can be interpreted that way but on the whole the people devaluing women and motherhood are not feminists.

Just catching up with the thread. So odd on a thread about male violence that we are talking about mothers. I knew a man who had a sahm who went onto become a murderer, she was his first victim.

The idea that women can control males by giving more, loving more, is utter bollocks. Society has to change the way it socialises boys, come down like a ton of bricks on violent crime of any sort, treat women as full equals and have them present in all positions of power, name the problem as it exists. Every time a crime is committed by a man it should be named as male violence.

Sweden has been brought up on here as an example of fathers participating.

In Sweden, iirc, fathers can permanently reject all parental responsibility and obligation to the child up to 18 weeks of pregnancy.

While it's great if mothers want to form equal relationships with men, pump breastmilk and hand it over to men so they can bond with their children or whatever, it's only one option.

It's fine as long as it isn't pushed as a way women must behave. It comes back to the age old idea that it's the responsibility of women to get into relationships with men and somehow tame them to stop them being anti social and violent.

There are plenty of women who don't have kids at all but still manage to not be violent adults. There are increasing numbers of women who wish to be single. There are increasing numbers of men who resent women for this (the alt right, incels, MRAs). There's a problem around men having an expectation of and sense of entitlement to being in a domestic situation with women and children. Many will never have children, so we need to promote the idea of fatherhood and motherhood with some kind of caution.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but part of the liberation of women and the belief that biology of destiny is that neither womanhood nor motherhood should tie you to a domestic relationship with a man.

Every so often I hear 'feminists say that SAHMs are letting the side down.' I have never ever once ever heard any feminist say this, ever.

The motivation to equate feminism with a devaluation of motherhood and the home in general has existed since the beginning of feminism itself as these anti-suffragette propaganda posters demonstrate.

I suspect that the fear behind it is simple: if women stopped performing unpaid labour then who will do it instead?

Well on this thread it isn't that the home is being devalued, it's that the domestic sphere and women's relationship with their children is being implicated in the cause of male violence and unhappiness.

The notion that somehow the intimate and attaching relationship with a mother can help future male violence, doesn't take into account that the woman who don't also manage to raise girls, who don't turn violent.

Yes. This is something unique to men.

There are many girls who have had absolutely terrible childhoods that don't grow up to be violent.

Datun, I think you might be being a bit too logical there

Men need to sort out male violence by collectively changing their own behaviour, and the way that they socialise with each other.

That's where male violence comes from.

The only thing women can do is keep up firm boundaries about male entitlement, control and violence, whenever we are able to do so, but often we can't.

I think someone ought to mention the link between alcohol and male violence? Men who go to the pub after work and then go home drunk to beat up their DP and/or DCs; that happens because men expect women to wipe their arses while they spend the family money on booze and then blame their partners for their problem.

It's a vicious circle and it goes back to how boys are brought up to view women.

Yes, and the link between male violence and gambling, debt, drug use, anti social crime, treatment of animals.

And we expect it all to be absorbed into the family. So that when the violence goes too far and the family gets murdered, people can turn around and blame it on the woman for doing something to antagonise a seemingly lovely man.

I agree with everything this article says and more. But then I was a victim of "domestic" violence 30 years ago and found it almost impossible to get anyone to either help me or take me seriously, my ex broke injunctions over and over again and most of the time I was told by police this was a civil matter and I needed to go back to court as they would do NOTHING even when a power of arrest was attached.
I was stalked, attacked at work, had my house broken into and attacked and at one point was dismissed from work due to his antics.
It is NOT "domestic" violence it is violence, domestic attached makes it sound like a marital quarrel and it is treated as such.
Porn, BDSM etc destroys marriages, men think it is ok to demand these things as their right and it is not ok.
It's easy to be flippant when you have not experienced the worst a man can do to a woman.

I think this thread has quickly turned into a thread about what women are doing wrong - staying at home, going to work. None of this is relevant and makes very little difference. The thread should be what men are doing wrong and what they need to do to change.

As long as we have state sponsored violence, religions that think they are superior, acceptance of excessive alcohol drinking, societies that think money is more important that people, massive inequalities etc there will be no change. I think there is so much work to do and the stakes are very high.

The problem is I don't think there is anything that women can do about it.

When women do point out the reality they are greeted with accusations of misandry. Plus the men who are likely to commit these crimes aren't likely to listen to women in the first place.

The change has to come from within male culture because the violent extremes of it it are influenced by mainstream male culture.

Mainstream male culture has a weird relationship with violence and aggression in general. On the one hand it recognises aggression as wrong and fights against it (the hero's mantra "evil flourishes when good men fail to act").

On the other hand the dominant, physically superior alpha male is idolized and envied. It's a fine line between strength, dominance and violence and only men can sort that out. It would benefit most men to do so because they make up the vast majority of victims of male violence.

In the meantime women are the spoils.

Coming from a third world country, violence and oppression of women is not even given a thought - it is what it is. Since I have gained an understanding I knew I was unwanted from birth. Some middle class families celebrate birth of a girl these days but majority don't. There is almost a moment of silence on hearing that a girl is born. I have always felt inferior and given less opportunities. Because women who demand more get punished - emotionally or physically. Random men touching you sexually or making sexual verbal advances is minimised and called eve teasing. It is not even worth addressing otherwise you will be locking up all men on the streets. They are even raping in gangs so at some point these men must have gathered and agreed to do it numbers openly, no? While men enjoy all the liberty - boys are boys and just having a bit of fun. I have heard that parents killing girls in the womb is affecting men/women ratio and men not getting a partner hence trafficking and forced prostitution. So even elder women try to numb down younger women because they have seen the consequences of raising your voice or trying to break through the norm. First verbal threat given to a women is that she will lose her shelter, means of living and rape too as casually as kids get given a timeout on misbehaving. Women are shown their place. Men who don't exert their power over their wife are called weak. It is safer to stay under control of a certain man than to suffer at the hands of groups of random men on the streets.

I have a failed marriage, failed family relationships because I'm not the typical wife expected in our culture to stay at their feet and satisfy everyone's wants. If you don't do those things, you get sent back to your parents which brings shame to them. Having needs is an inconvenience and quickly put down as uncultured. Even though I'm working and can survive alone, who am I fighting for? what am I fighting for? They are all like that and in the end I'll be left alone all by myself. It is believed that women get too power hungry when they are independent and earning. Money corrupts women and what? it doesn't do the same to men? Some hindu's change the bride's first name also after wedding, wiping her entity completely. You start over in his house, his rules. Mistreatment by men in the family is not raised as a problem. They are allowed to be uncaring and given upper authority as if they own the women in the family. Typical excuse from the man is that he is working his ass of for you only but why? Because society won't pay me the same money so he is running the house. It could be very subtle in modern families but fathers, sons and brothers have an upper hand. Plus biology doesn't help women because giving birth and raising kids is no joke.

I have seen some new age parents where they are not accepting physical violence towards their daughters but emotional abuse and psychological control is acceptable. But when physical violence starts, it is excused as a one off, the man got so much pressure and got triggered and so on. There is just no end. I really hope that people collectively raise it as some of us are left so behind that mass representation will be a new birth for some of us. I'm all alone today because of my desires, families too scared, they are scared if all women start asking for more, there will be no families left because men won't share control and like to keep it on their terms. It is a society problem, society has given unlimited opportunities to men first. You wouldn't know if you saw me on the street. I look just like you but what goes on behind closed doors, no one knows. Sorry to go on a different tangent OP. I don't know what I'm on about but if there is something that can be done to help make things better, it would be welcome. Thank you.

an for your post SeedingGrass. It's sobering to realise what a massive mountain there still is to climb and it sickens me that it is so endemic it is just accepted.

The personal costs to you for not taking the path laid out for you have been enormous but every time one woman rebels she makes it easier for women after her.

SeedingGrass - be sure that you are on the right path.

I think single, independent women (especially mothers) are shunned the world over. Why are we such a threat to men?

There is a lot women can do about the way things are.

Thank you for sharing, SeedingGrass. You really are very brave. I help with a women's ministry that helps Central Asian women looking specifically at issues of abuse, prostitution and trafficking. The ladies that come are so brave, a lot of them have set up women's projects that empower women to be able to support themselves.

A lot of them have very similar stories to you.

Reading everyone's posts, I am so humbled. Would any of the posters who posted early on this thread, so desperate to consider men's feelings over women's lives, explain if they still feel that way?

SeedingGrass - you are worth a million of most men.

seedlingrass

I heard of a local woman today, was in my Nct group, who had been viscously assaulted by her husband earlier this year. He's been convicted and has limited contact with their son.

I know far far too many women this has happened to. In my leafy, 'middle class' suburb.

The older I get, the more I realise the extent of the issue.

It's a vicious circle and it goes back to how boys are brought up to view women. I can't help thinking the root of the problem lies in the early days of a boys' up bringing, society is perpetuating this issue. Individuals are responsible for their actions, but so is society.