... to think it slightly odd that so many of my school mum friends are hung up about secondary schools already, when their kids are only 5!

[sandyballs]

It seems to be the sole topic of conversation lately - how good/bad the local comp is, how extra tuition will be needed for the local grammar etc etc.

The kids are 5/6 years old! Let them be kids!

I'm sure our parents never had all this school angst!

ah, I see. I take back the comment about stalking, then.

well, at least you didn't start talking to past self

PMSL at Fio

Habbibu - on the "right address". We were having a conversation about this last night, about choice of school for our daughter (2.10). My partner had had lunch with an old friend of his and it transpired in the course of the conversation that this man's two younger half-sisters had both attended the exceedingly academic school we shall be applying to for my daughter.

This friend (who is apparently a very down to earth man) said that both his sisters had been pushed to the limits at this school, that it wasn't for the faint-hearted but was an excellent school for very intelligent children from families committed to education. He also said that one of the huge advantages that he perceived was that there was a critical mass of students in that school who were extremely clever and went on to great things - and so, later on in life, you would be inserted in a professional and social network that enabled you to get things done in a way that was impossible if you hadn't been to such a school.

The "right address" does help society move forward IMO.

No, not if it's only the "right address" in terms of perceived prestige, and not in terms of actual teaching quality, resources, etc. If someone has been very well taught and supported, that can be passed on and benefit society, but that isn't necessarily best done from "the right address". The perception and reality often don't match.

Hab, the people advising the York girl were right. We don't live in some socialist paradise. We live in a country where if you want to edit the Times, get a graduate job at XYZ pharma or whatever if you have been to the better universities you are more likely to get those jobs. Of course you may be as clever as if you'd left school at 14 and read every book there is on your subject but our country doesn't work like that.

On the other hand I've advised teenagers a few times who are brilliant and run companies. You certainly don't need school exams to be successful as this country views success.

My point that we are to blame if we can't afford things in our 30s and 40s because we picked silly careers - the nurse rather than the doctor or whatever.... the flower arranger rather than the accountant... well yes I accept your point that some people are just too stupid to be able to run a business even if it's a chain of flower shops and find it hard enough to turn up to work on time because even using a watch is difficult but there are choices most children can make. One our biggest choices is how hard to work actually. Plenty of people buy a better lifestyle by taking a second job whilst other people want to sit in front of the TV from 6 - 10 every night.

But Xenia, that's my point - in this case York was the better university in terms of teaching, etc. Just not in terms of "address".

And Xenia - don't know where you got "people are too stupid to run a business" was my idea - certainly not. And be careful what you say about "stupid" jobs. A nurse may not be a well paid job, but a hospital won't run with doctors alone, and you may well find yourself grateful for people who've made quite a selfless choice in the future.

Habbibu - but the group of highly educated people will in later life be able to forge ahead because they know lots of like-minded clever people in important jobs and get things done, whereas the single highly educated person without the social/professional network will get left behind because he/she won't be able to pick up the phone and get her old friends in high places on board. That's life.

That's also one of the reasons women have a hard time in the higher echelons of business - their girly professional network is much smaller than a man's.

as my son is nearly 14, i have to say that i'm more worried about saving and paying for him during his years at university (which he will hopefully go to). i see that as more important that secondary. i don't want him to start work and then have to pay back any student loans.

Fine - but lets call a spade a spade. Oxford and Cambridge are the socially advantageous universities. Not necessarily the "best" in academic terms in all subjects. And not necessarily with the most academic students.

What?

OK, but academia isn't an end it itself. Human progress is only valuable if it benefits society - so making the "socially advantageous" choice is also the morallly superior choice.

Ok - Anna - nice talking to you, but I really don't want to get into a discussion over whether Oxbridge is a morally superior choice. We will never agree on this, and I'm not sure it would be a constructive or useful discussion, so I'd rather not get into it, if that's ok. Cheers

Yes, for individual subjects there are some better places than Oxbridge. Of course there are. I've 3 children at university/law school and we've talked a lot about these issues in the last 5 years. The point is that the people who will be recruiting you (the rather thick HR girls) will be ticking their boxes - AAA, 2/1, university on the list of ones she's heard of etc) or the man over 60 who thinks the only universities that count are Oxbridge, with Durham second as it always was and possibly Bristol, LSE and a few others with all his historical bias, he's the man who might count in who will hire you. SO you play the game, don';t you, if you're clever and want those jobs.

Or you opt out. I genuinely have no problems with children opting out of that game too. What I want most is they have principles and interests and that means they reject the way things are done that's fine too but it has to be an informed choice.

are ALL HR girls thick then?
do you KNOW them all?

The business point I just was agreeing with you that some people aren't up to doing the extreme jobs/careers or whatever that make the money just as most of our sons probably won't make the Manchester United football team or be the next Harry Potter actor but there's nothing wrong with making children achieve their own full potential. I certainly don't ascribe to the blank slate theory that everything is environment and not genetics so yes sometimes one particular person won't get anywhere.

No, Xenia, that must have been someone else's comment. Wasn't me.

Xenia, you get worse.

"Rather thick HR girls",

I pity you and your children tbh, you come across like a moneygrabbing Hyacinth Bucket type, very tacky.

errr xenia,
my best friend went to Haberdashers... then to Durham... and now is a "thick HR girl" earning a six figure salary in accenture.

i think you would approve of her actually.

Life is for living, not for worrying about schools 10 years down the line or money.

Clever children do well regardless whatever schools they go to.

My sister attended various dodgy schools and a polytech but is currently a level higher with more wages in her very well paid career job than her privately educated DH-to-be who works for the same company.

A friend of mine is at Cheltenham Ladies College, she has just received her GCSE results, she got something along the lines of 7 A*, 3A and 1B, she is now starting her AS levels and has already resigned herself to the fact that she probably won't get into Oxbridge now with those exam results (pity as she was going to stay with us when she did) and will probably have to go to Edinburgh instead.
I have never heard anything quite so ridiculous tbh.
I may be crazy but my main ambition for my children is happiness, and I would prefer that happiness to come from simple things, rather than such materialistic bollocks.
Oh and btw, DP and many of his school friends went to Oxford Brookes University and made some great friends from Oxford University, there really isn't much difference in any of their 'success'.
He also knew many Oxford Brookes students so terrified of telling their parents they didn't get into Oxford, but were at the lesser known university that they would buy Oxford University sweaters and the such to wear home.
How sad.

"My sister attended various dodgy schools and a polytech"
This is a bit like those TV clips of Madge who smokes 40 fags a day reaching her 100th birthday. There will always be exceptions but on the whole, getting a good education will improve your life (the measurement is NOT monetary necessarily) and smoking will shorten it.

"I may be crazy but my main ambition for my children is happiness, and I would prefer that happiness to come from simple things, rather than such materialistic bollocks. "

i concur!