Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think I'm being scammed by this builder?

54 replies

NamedyChangedy · 31/07/2017 11:57

Slightly time sensitive so posting here for traffic.

We're due to start work on our single-storey extension tomorrow, knocking through to get a bigger open-plan kitchen / diner, and I suspect the builder we've hired might be pulling a fast one.

We hired him as his prices were a bit more reasonable than the other quotes we'd had, and he seemed competent. It turns out that he subcontracts the building work to someone else, and just project manages. Which I'm fine with, in principle. We paid him a 20% deposit. However, he's just called and said we have a problem...

He (PM) paid a large deposit to Builder A to start work tomorrow. Builder A has done a runner gone back to his home country for a month so is now not available, so PM has found another guy who he's worked with before (Builder B) who can do the job for a bit more money. PM says that he is willing to swallow the difference between the two prices so that we only pay the amount on the PM contract, HOWEVER, Builder B needs a deposit of £15K if he's to start work tomorrow. PM can only cover £8K of it, so we'd need to pay the remaining £7K if we want the work to go ahead. The overall amount we agreed with PM would stay as is.

So... do we pay him another £7K on top of the £20K+ deposit we've already paid, which has apparently gone AWOL, and just trust that the rest of the process will go smoothly? We have a small contingency but this is basically our life savings we're talking about here. If someone else told me this story I'd probably have advised them to cut their losses and just ask for their deposit back (although if he's having cash flow problems it doesn't seem like he's in a position to give us that either).

In the meantime, the house is in chaos as we've had to clear everything out ready for demolition tomorrow.

What would you do??

(Also, yes I know it's ridiculous London prices etc etc, that can't really be helped, unfortunately Angry)

OP posts:
domesticslattern · 31/07/2017 13:10

Ok, so you have a contract, references and a payment plan which is much like mine was. Losing labour to long holidays in August and at Xmas is also very normal.
So now you look at the contract. Does it say anything about subcontracting, unexpected costs, cooling off periods (etc). In short, you pay and he delivers according to the contract you both signed. If your builder cannot deliver against the contract (including the payment schedule) then you ask for your deposit back.

HerOtherHalf · 31/07/2017 13:14

Whether it is a scam or not is very hard to determine. However, if this new builder also does a runner with your deposit what happens next? I would not be entering into any commitment with this level of financial risk without first ensuring I was fully covered for any up-front payments should the builder or their subcontractors go bust or disappear.

Original poster
NamedyChangedy · 31/07/2017 13:14

Thanks for the perspective Tatlerer, and wow at the size of your build! But sadly I think the trust is gone with our guy, and I'm not sure I do want to go any further.

I've just had another look at the contract and the initial payment was described as a 'deposit', not as a first instalment. It doesn't specifically say non-refundable, but I suppose that's down to interpretation? I would very much like my money back though!

I need to call him in the next hour and am just running through the various scenarios in my head. He's been reasonable so far but of course personalities change when money's involved. If someone could write me a script that would be much appreciated! Should say something other than:

NC: We want our money back.
PM: No.

Sad
OP posts:
Original poster
NamedyChangedy · 31/07/2017 13:16

@domesticslattern, there's no reference to subcontracting or a cooling off period etc. Now you mention it, we didn't actually know that he was subcontracting until after the contract was signed - I think that's my main message here actually.

OP posts:
DoItTooJulia · 31/07/2017 13:17

Your arrangement seems normal to me. Until he asked for more money and varied the arrangement.

I would speak to him and say that you're looking at the contract to see what his obligations are, as he'll surely understand that you're loath to hand over yet more money given that you've stuck to the contract thus far and he hasn't. And he has £20 k of yours and you have nothing to show for it!

DoItTooJulia · 31/07/2017 13:19

X post.

If you want your money back, I think you need legal advice and I'd get a solicitors letter drafted to that effect ASAP.

Newdad19 · 31/07/2017 13:20

Is it likely he may say he plaved some of the money down as a deposit himself to the first subcontractor? Although wouldnt be true if hes able to use another one

Tatlerer · 31/07/2017 13:22

namedychangedy good luck with your call. I think doittooJulia has it spot on. Yes we're spending a lot Confused. Will hopefully be our forever home though.

ShatnersWig · 31/07/2017 13:23

Absolutely do not give him any more money. Ridiculous behaviour (son of a building contractor). If he chooses to subcontract, yes he absolutely has to swallow any difference with a new contractor but he also does not ask you to cough up more cash on top of a £20k deposit.

Kingfishergreen · 31/07/2017 13:28

I'd get it down in an email and say something like:

"Apologies, but we are going to need to cancel the work for now. We're not comfortable with the change of builders and further up-front charges, so we need to take a step back and assess our options.

I've double-checked the agreement, and the deposit is not listed as non-refundable, so please confirm when we should expect a refund.

Let's discuss on our call later"

Then send the email ahead of the call, phone him and talk through the email (it gives you a starting point rather than kicking the call off with the bad news).

Key words/phrases:

We're not comfortable with...XXX

XXX..... is not working for us

It's a lot of money, we need to ensure we do XXX right the first time

I've checked the contract/agreement and XXX

Woobeedoo · 31/07/2017 13:33

The CAB has information on their website about deposits and refunds. Usually if the work is cancelled by you 14 days after signing the contract, you lose the money.

Did your builder have Terms and Conditions on the back of his contract? Builders and infact most trades people (myself included), will have a clause about acts of God and things happening out of their control which they cannot be held accountable for. Go through the contract with a fine tooth comb and if you have legal cover on your home insurance, you might have to get them involved if your builder doesn't play nicely.

GreenTulips · 31/07/2017 13:35

Look him up on companies house - it's free

Hereward1332 · 31/07/2017 13:42

However, he's just called and said we have a problem...

He's wrong. He has a problem. Your contract is with him; he has a contract with the sub contractors. You didn't choose or negotiate with them. His obligation is to complete the works for the fee agreed, or return your deposit.

Hissy · 31/07/2017 13:45

When did you sign this contract? what are the cancellation terms

WHERE did you sign the contract - I'm wondering if Cooling off Periods apply?

HE most definitely has a problem, I agree, he gets the work done for the price or returns the deposit.

LaurieFairyCake · 31/07/2017 13:48

The terms of the contract changed afterwards as he decided to sub contract surely?

I honestly think you should talk to someone legal before speaking to him. Do you have coverage with your home insurance?

StormTreader · 31/07/2017 13:55

I have friends who were in almost this exact situation - their PM had to take on extra work to cover the shortfall in the money, my friends didnt have to cover it.

Original poster
NamedyChangedy · 31/07/2017 15:14

thanks @kingfishergreen, really helpful.

Had a good, open follow-up conversation with him, feeling better about the whole thing but still uneasy that we take on the majority of the risk here. But it would be the same with any builder, I suppose.

He was very apologetic about the fact that his cash flow problem was affecting us, and seemed suitably embarrassed. We talked about what would happen if we didn't pay the extra money and he said he was committed to delivering the work, but it might just happen at a later date, once he could pin down Builder A or get his deposit back from him. Not ideal, but at least he's not doing a runner I guess.

He says he's been upfront about the fact that he'd be bringing different teams in and he may well have been with DP although I wasn't present for all conversations so that's our issue really.

One thing he said that I wanted to double check with those in the know - he said it's very rare for builders to NOT subcontract, very few have full-time employees because of the cost of pensions, NICs etc, and because work is seasonal.

So where am I? I haven't 100% ruled out using him, but he'll have a lot to do to rebuild the relationship. DP likes him and trusts him. I'm on the fence.

OP posts:
ShatnersWig · 31/07/2017 15:19

He is right about a lot of builders sub contracting but they tend to use people they've used before and fairly regularly so they know they are good quality.

However, it is still not acceptable that you should have to pay out more money to get the work done to your schedule or have it delayed. It's not your problem that he has "lost" part of your money by giving it so someone who has buggered off.

manhowdy · 31/07/2017 15:44

Good luck NamedyChangedy - I hope he's an honest chap and this all turns out OK for you. Agree with the general consensus of not giving him any more, just in case.

DangerMouse17 · 31/07/2017 15:55

I just don't understand where your 20k has gone? OK Builder A has buggered off for a month, but surely when he told your PM this he would have got the money back at that point....or is Builder A off enjoying a 20K holiday somewhere

Ravenqueen85 · 31/07/2017 16:03

When we had a building project done we did staged payments. Certainly paid a small deposit upfront and all was OK.
Hope it works out for you.

flownthecoopkiwi · 31/07/2017 16:08

If his initials are DQ, run. Well, get your money back and run.

GreenTulips · 31/07/2017 16:59

Builder A should still be contactable shouldn't he? Most places have wifi -

Builder B should also have credit at local stores so they shouldn't need funds to buy materials etc in 30 day credit terms

Butterymuffin · 31/07/2017 17:05

This mention of 'if he doesn't get the deposit back from him' [Builder A] In those circumstances, what's he going to do? Ask him.

Newdad19 · 01/08/2017 12:58

Anymore update on it? Have you decided what to do?