...to ask what age you can actually influence your child's sleep?

[SylvesterAbend]

I strongly believe to a certain extent that babies are either good sleepers or bad sleepers. But at what age do you think you can affect this? And how?

I'm not sure I agree that all babies are good or bad sleepers. Some may be perhaps. But I don't think the parents who rush to their baby at every tiny whimper are doing them any favours in helping their dc sleep.

I'd say 15-18 months is what has worked for us.

Ps. I do think there are a number of things that affect them, feeding for example.

With babies it's pot luck. I've had four and I did the same with all of them. One was a 'good' sleeper (11pm approx 7am by 6wks old), one was an 'excellent' sleeper (7pm to 7am from day one, I used to get wrong off the MW for not waking her to feed but she would refuse to feed if I did wake her), one horrific sleeper who didn't sleep through until he was 2yo, and current baby who is a good-ish sleeper and will go 11pm-7am for a few nights then will be constantly up and down for one night before going back to 11pm to 7am for another few nights.

I think you can try and foster good sleep habits with a gentle routine of wash/bath, pyjamas, and a feed (and then build on that as they get older by adding in stories, teethbrushing, etc) but before the age of 6-12 months - in my experience, at least - it doesn't make a vast difference.

I think you can have some influence over it pretty early tbh.

I've started to 'encourage' good habits from the beginning with all of mine. From day 1, 7pm onwards is quiet time...downstairs with us but minimal interaction and noise. 11pm is bedtime...we go upstairs then and don't come down or switch lights on until 7am (very low wattage lamp if needed for feeds etc) whether baby is awake or not. They get their needs seen to but get put in Moses basket or cot and left alone as much as possible.

I also don't change their nappy from 9pm ish until wake up time, from day 1 (I would if they pooed but never had a night poo!). The way I see it, they have to get used to the feel of a wet nappy overnight or they'll never sleep through.

When they start sleeping 11pm-a decent morning hour, I bring bedtime forward by 30 mins and do that until they go 7-7.

It 'worked' with ds1 and 2 - ds1 was going 7-7 at 6 weeks and ds2 at 14 weeks. Ds3 is now 10 weeks and just started going 11pm-7am so in a week or so his bedtime will be coming forward a bit.

Lots of friends have scoffed and said it's ridiculous to not change nappies twice through the night and to stay upstairs in a quiet and dark room, even when your 5 week old is awake for hours of it...but they're the ones who've had their 8 month olds still downstairs until midnight, not me

I accept that some may have bad luck re:sleeping...feeding issues, colic, reflux which force baby awake. But barring any of those issues, I think generally a babies sleep habits will be heavily influenced by the parents.

I sleep trained my son at 9 months with amazing results.

I'm currently pregnant with DC2 and when he comes along I will encourage better sleeping habits than I did with DS. I hope that this time round I will avoid the mistakes I made the first time round.

I made some terrible mistakes right from the beginning and then tiredness meant that I continued to make bad decisions.

so, to answer your question, I would say from birth.

I'll be flamed. I did CC at 6 months. After 3 days it was done with. At 4 he still sleeps like an angel. Happy with that

As early as possible. I did it with my first at 6 weeks and second at about 8 weeks. Both were good sleepers until teeth popped in then it all went to pot. Get some sleep
before the teeth!!

A lot of it is to do with timing the feeds and building a routine around that and it will make your lodge easier in the long run.

Ps I don't think it's "luck" and "good" or "bad" it's about routine and commitment.

IME routine and structured day feeding and bed/night routine helps enormously. I did both from day 1 with both kids and they are brilliant sleepers.
DD2 took longer to get in a routine and didn't sleep as well as early but slept 7-7 at 8 months. DD1 slept 7-7 at 5 months.
Having said that, I think some of it is also down to the child. Even now they both need a lot of sleep for their ages (10 hours at 9 & 6)

I appreciate posts from people who have had both babies who sleep easily and babies who don't. If you've had more than one child who sleeps well it's not possible to say that it was all down to your routine or parenting. Of course it might be, but it implies that parents with a baby who doesn't find sleep easy are just somehow "doing it wrong".

I only have experience with one child, and he's only 7mths and still not sleeping that well, but it's getting better. So I don't consider myself an expert, and it's possible that if we'd taken a different approach from birth he might be sleeping better. But honestly, if you have a "bad" sleeper, it's really likely that you've tried ALL of the routines that the parents of "good" sleepers swear by.

I had twins. One was a decent sleeper and one was a crap sleeper, till we did CC with her at 6 months, when she went from waking every 90 minutes and being in a crap mood all day to waking once in the night and being in a decent mood most of the day. I mean, you can never know what would have happened if you hadn't intervened - maybe all her sleep problems would have resolved themselves but I've got enough mates sharing beds with 3 and 4 year olds to know that there's no guarantee.

So in answer to the original question: I think at 6 months, as long as there are no health issues that might be affecting them.

IME there are three types of baby:

1. the ones who sleep "well" no matter what you do;
2. the ones who can be nudged/persuaded into sleeping well if you work at it;
3. the ones who are terrible sleepers, no matter what you try.

If you have a 1) or 2) baby, likely some time from 4/6 months. If you have a 3) baby, you'll just have to wait until they get it naturally, or at least can be persuaded not to bother you when they're awake in the night. (And you'll also get parents of 2) babies assuming you just haven't tried what they did, which is seriously infuriating when you're in the middle of hellish sleep deprivation and people twitter on about "ooooh you just need a Good Bedtime Routine!")

53rd that makes sense to me. I think DD is type 2 and DS type 3. DN who also lived with us was type 1.

With DD (14 weeks) we are going upstairs at 7, no talking, no lights on, feeding until drowsy then putting down and crossing fingers. It works 50% of the time.

You can definitely train from around 9 months and I believe it's unkind allowing children to grow beyond toddlerhood unable to settle themselves, unable to go to sleep upheld or supported to wake frequently at night.

Pretty much right from birth, in my experience. That doesn't mean 'sleep training' or 'controlled crying', but there are things you can do to help them settle.
I have had 3 babies, and using 53rdways categories, 1 was number 1 and the other 2 were number 2. Thankfully I didn't have any in the 3rd category but I have known a couple of babies like that, so I know they exist.

I've done nothing different with mine but one woke every couple of hours and needed support to get back to sleep until 18 months, and still needs cuddles if they wake up in the night, whereas the other is still a baby and needs much less input, sleeps better and calms down on their own if they wake up huffing.

So now I think no two babies are the same and parents who think they've got it 'right' and others could have good sleepers too if they just did the right thing are talking out of their bum and have just either had only one baby, OR have had babies of similar temperaments. While there are certainly things you can do to promote sleep, it's also down to the baby. If I'd had baby number 2 FIRST I'm sure I'd believe that my way was THE way to ensure a good nights sleep but what I do actually appears to have had very little bearing.

Sorry to slightly add my own question but its relevant.

Im in sleep hell with my toddler due to ASD. however I think I have been trying to have a quiet feed and xreated a rod for my own back with the baby. he seems to be having an ounce of milk hourly and I cant settle him without it. How would you all go about fixing it.

baby and toddler share a room and I have a tiny flat so crying it out is not really an option :(

oh baby is 9, nearly 10 months

Completely agree with 53rd way

I think there are things you can do to help or hinder, but you're working with what you have. So good routines, dark nights, light days, consistent nap timings etc are all helpful. Things like running to every whimper and giving in when they get out of bed for the fiftieth time are unhelpful.

But... I think a lot of sleep is developmental. Ds was about the worst sleeper of anyone I know and looking back, I don't think we did anything 'wrong.' We were given a lot of advice by medical professionals and 99% of it we were already doing. The sleep specialist at the hospital told us we were doing everything right and that a small proportion of kids just take a very long time to get it. That, frankly, was the best bit of advice we ever got.

Ds did get it, eventually, at 18m. It was absolutely nothing we did or changed, he just grew into it. Literally over a week he slept through from waking screaming 6-10 x a night.

With regards to cc - I think it can work if the child is waking from habit. We tried it with ds and it made things very much worse. Looking back it was a daft thing to do for him because his problem wasnt habit it was separation anxiety.

So I think that kids are all individuals, and there's no one size fits all approach. Cc can work, but it's not the panacea for all ills.

You can certainly help or hinder with habits and routines. You can nudge. But I don't think you can do any one thing that will guarantee sleep.

I think 53rdway has it nailed. DD1 was type 1 - fully bf, slept through 10 till 8 from 6 weeks. At 4 months we started easing bedtime back 15 minutes at a time to work with my routine when I went back to work, she was fab.

DD2 was type 2 - needed feeding at 11.30 and 2.30. You could set the clock by her. She'd take both sides in 15 minutes flat and then conk out. I night weaned her when she started faffing about on the boob at 11 months, did pick up/put down, and within 3 nights she was sleeping 7 - 6.

Can't imagine how I'd have coped with a type 3 - respect to those who have/are.

roundabout I'd take baby into your room temporarily. Bottle of water And dad - baby gets cuddles and fluids but not milk and you. There will be wailing but if they are with their dad and being cuddled it's more rage than fear.
Probably not a good idea to aim for all night at first - you feed one or two consistent times and the rest he gets dad and water. Work up to night weaning totally.

Agree you can help or hinder. Also agree that owners of type 1s and 2s that think owners of type 3s haven't tried things and are bringing it on themselves need a damn good thrashing!!

My 1st and 3rd were both type 2 babies but middle one was the definition of a type 3!

Did exactly the same with all 3 - she was still bloody awful until she was over 3 years old and at nearly 5 is still a massive faffer at bedtime and will arse around all evening if she can so whilst I think you can guide them, it's totally down to their personality