To try and find a way of telling my friend she has made a mistake getting a dog?

[PaulDacresButtPlug]

I board dogs, and also walk dogs. I have two border collies, who I love and have put in the hours and effort you need (and we have had issues with the younger one especially - both are rescue.) Due to the type of dogs I have, and now from experience of looking after many different other breeds, I am very confident with regards to what they need and take a lot of pride in it.

A very good friend has, on the basis of my two, also got herself a border collie (she didn't tell me until afterwards, and said it was because 'they are easy to train.')

I am now looking after this dog while she is on holiday for a fortnight. Until now, I had not seen her with the dog at all (the dog is now nearly 18 months old) so had no idea of it's behaviour.

She talks animatedly about the training she has done, but I am now suspecting this is more a case of her telling me what she thinks I might want to hear. Her son has told me that the dog isn't always walked, sometimes (as he is sitting is GCSE's) they 'don't have time so just throw a ball in the garden.') The dog pulls on the lead, has clearly very limited socialisation (not much idea of how to behave with other dogs, he either snarls or goes nuts), and does lots of irritating things like jumping up constantly.

I have mentioned via text a few of these issues and she has repeatedly pointed out 'he is just a puppy' or 'it's like looking after a naughty toddler, he'll be better when he is older'. She thinks the jumping up is cute 'because its like he hasn't seen me for years', and the constant whining or barking is met with 'a stroke or a treat' to stop it. The dog has chewed it's bed - it's one of those plastic oval one's with the higher sides - and cannot be left for long in the house without anything chewable being moved out of the way.

Her son does a lot of competitive swimming so they often take the dog along (as he cannot be left in the house) but left in the car but taken out for occasional loo breaks. He has walks on a long lead 'so he can sniff about' but she won't often take him off lead due to his recall. She appears to think this will resolve as he gets older.

This is a good friend of mine who I know well. I think she will be in denial that she has made a mistake, and wouldn't want to lose face, but I also think she needs to address the issues she has created before they get even worse. Or she needs to rehome asap before they get any worse.

I am dreading saying something but I also think I will regret it if I say nothing as its not the dog's fault. The dog is not 'just a puppy' or 'a bit loopy' and these issues will only get worse if things carry on as they are.

Or do I just butt out and leave her to come to whatever conclusion on her own?

Think this is it:
bordercollietrustgb.homestead.com/New_Site/Rehoming/The_Border_Collie.html

Difficult one I think in your shoes I'd say something, it sounds like she's bitten off more than she can chew, but is in denial. I got my first collie last year after always having spaniels (working-type springers and cockers) and he's been a challenge compared to the spangles. He's coming up to a year old and we're getting there - it helps that I have sheep and he is really loving his work with them.

Could you persuade her that s/he needs a job to do? She doesn't sound like she's going to make time to join a flyball group or anything like that, but if they could swap the ball-throwing in the garden for a basic agility course, that might help wear the brain out a bit and calm down the behaviour.

If you find out a diplomatic way of saying it, or of how to put off someone who wants to get a dog but you wouldn't trust to look after a pet rock please please let me know!

So fed up with these people. Just don't want to invest the time and effort a dog takes.

I have just Googled Maremma dog, I had no idea what they were either!

Thanks Spudlet for the link.

I dont know how open she would actually be towards doing something like agility. I am starting to suspect she is actually quite lazy as a dog owner. There was a country fete in our area a month ago and she refused to take the dog. The reason she gave was that the dog would be a liability and try and jump all over all the other dogs which were there. I actually think the sings can become a necessary evil. If you never do anything with the dog, will take the dog anyway, you make it a bigger problem. The dog then ends up unable to cope with being in different situations, and knowing how to behave.

I know from my own experience, and I have been through the mill with especially my first dog, that it can be bloody hard work. But, we persevered because I think you have a responsibility towards the animal that you choose to adopt. It's not their fault. If I had known what she was thinking of doing I think I would've tried to talk her out of it, or made her spend more time with me and with some of the dogs I look after.

Mine are now seven and 10 and extremely well-behaved, but it hasn't always been the case. We have had many issues and some have taken a hell of a lot of work and time to work out and get over. I think she has just focussed on the end result, and disregarded everything she knows we went through to get to the point we are now.

Maybe if he comes back improved and she's pleased, you could suggest she use puppy classes to continue his training?

Maybe you could lie and say he shows potential for agility but will have to solve all his recall/jumping/socialisation problems through classes as agility requires such a high level of discipline. Often people won't train a pet through laziness but if they have a goal or think their dog is special it can motivate them to take training seriously.

I know exactly why she got a border collie, she saw yours and thought that they are perfect dogs. They are, but only if you put in the work as you have done! Mine is 4 now and when she was a year old I nearly rehomed her as she would soil due to separation anxiety whenever we left the house and jump and and nip at the children. She doesn't do this anymore because she has been trained not to, and she looks like the perfect, effort free pet. She really isn't, she is lovely but she's been hard work!
Worth every minute though.

People like your friend give me the rage. She has no business having a dog with that attitude.

Coffee I like the idea of coming from that angle. The dog is extra special but she will have to put more effort in initially. I am also happy to do it with her, but she does need to prioritise that over taking her son swimming. I realise the swimming is also important, but it's not something her son has suddenly taken up doing, he has been doing it for years .

Our first border collie had major issues with trying to herd things. This translated to her nipping two cyclists and also a jogger over the course of the week. We saw a
two behaviourist, had 1:1 training sessions and also saw a vet, and nothing seemed to work. It was basically trying to fight their instinct.

Eventually, I found someone who specialised in border collie's and any problems that can come from the breed in particular. They were miracle workers. The advice they gave me worked a dream, and now she goes into work mode when she sees a cyclist or a jogger, concentrating on me the whole time rather than taking matters into her own hands!

Before that, I had actually walked through the park with her on the lead in tears thinking what on earth have I done as nothing seemed to work (which was mainly the recall training and tips I had been given.)

And my friend knows all this too...!

I think that angle might help too - finding someone who will work with the breed traits of the dog and emphasising the specialness of that to her. Make it a point of pride for her.

I used to test clients on what their dogs were bred for to get them thinking about it, I think working with breed traits is so important!

My friend got a border collie. She worked full time. In the middle of London. This dog turned very neurotic, would howl and howl when she even left the room. She seemed to like that the dog was so attached to her but I didn't think it was healthy. The dog would also nip at people, did so when I was with him once and he was lying under a café table and someone walked past. I was so embarrassed. It made me angry as I grew up in the country and the happiest, calmest collies were ones that worked.

All you can do is continue to offer advice and a proportion should sink in. Perhaps suggest them joining you on walks and she may realise the benefits.

I get told all the time how lucky I am that my dog & previous dogs are all so well behaved and placid. Yeah that's right it's luck nothing to do with daily exercise and constant reinforcement of training.

It pisses me off no end when there is a wealth of advice availabile from friends that people do next to no research before getting a dog, one Facebook "friend" got a Malamute X on the basis that it would give her an insensitive to go for walks, she has plenty of doggy friends so I didn't have to tell her she was daft it had already been said with various levels of directness by others.

IMO it was awful of the "breeder" to let her buy it as well.

The main problem is that border collies are cheap to acquire and very cute puppies. Stupid people who do no research before getting a dog won't be told after the fact.

I understand how you feel, but I don't see it ending well. I mean I'd go ahead and say something, but I get the feeling it will go in one ear and out the other. Telling someone their dog has issues is like telling someone their kid is a brat, and unfortunately will probably get the same reaction.

I do wonder if she also had in the back of her mind that the dog would mean she has to go out and that would subsequently mean she lost weight. She is always going on some fitness model rather, and very rarely do the last more than a couple of months. She hasn't said this to me, I'm just thinking it might be the case

Sadly your friend is not alone in this, I know so many people who get a cute puppy because their kids wanted a dog not knowing how much work actually goes into rearing a puppy into a well behaved adult.

One of my friends got a puppy on a whim as their DD was scared of dogs as a way of getting her used to them, puppy was there 2 weeks then given to the grandparents.

Another one got a BC with an under 2 & pregnant with no2, dog doesn't get the walking/stimulation she needs.

No way I have the time for a BC, I find my dog tough enough at times as it is.

Coffee and Paul - can I ask how you discouraged the nipping? Mine has, in the last 10 days, nipped two people and I want to get it stopped before it becomes a habit. Both times he's been fine when they've come in through the gate and while they've been here, it's only been when they've turned round and walked away to leave - I assume he's trying to bring them back to me, as we've been working on 'look back' to pick up a sheep that's split off from the flock.

Oh this is all so sad to read - we had two Borders for years until they passed away, but haven't been able to welcome another as we don't have the set-up. Beautiful dogs, but a breed that need time, training, attention... and an owner who knows they have a Border.

Coffeethrowtrampbitch (I love this name as that show is basically the documentary of my working life) has a good plan. Flattery can help. It is a bloody shame to see a bored, frustrated Border, please do say something to give the fella a chance.

(BTW I am really hoping people start posting pictures soon)

Sil and brother got a border collie. It bit my dd on the face at 15 months old just above the eye. They were in denial about it and attacked me because I was cross. Did train it later... finally. But more trained their son when he was born not to approach the dog.

Some people are clueless sadly. I am chronically ill so I got a cockapoo. Experienced dog owner btw. Perfect for my family. Now cockapoos, they are a doddle to train. Border collies not so much. I had a collie x with alsation as my first dog. I didn't choose him, I rescued him from someone, who wanted an animated toy. Dog went from a family with a baby and never walked to a spoilt brat, early 20's before I got him. He was around 18 months and a handful.

Yes, I'm another person, who says to tell him.

My friend has a border collie too and my heart breaks for him. He's about 5 now and she's had him since he was a puppy. He spends all day in a tiny enclosed back garden all day and she puts him into the shed at night. He is never walked because she claims that he's too strong on his lead and pulls her. He's not allowed in her house either (because he damaged furniture etc in previous home and she got into trouble with the landlord)
I know nothing about dogs but I'm guessing he's distressed... Always crying, hyper, barking, then sad looking.
I can't go near him as I've small DC and he will jump on them so I only see him through the door.

If she wasn't my friend, I'd probably report her. I'm surprised neighbours haven't. I did read though that if a dog is fed, has shelter and a clean area and no obvious neglect that animal welfare won't intervene.
Sorry that's not relevant to your thread OP, but some people just infuriate me

Alcea that's heartbreaking.

NorthCoast the issue we had with the nipping was her wanting to control things that were moving fast, such as joggers or cyclists. She would take off at top speed and then nip at their ankles, it was horrendous. It never happened indoors, so slightly different to the issue you have.

I was told by a BC rescue that 'she has two instincts, one is to herd and another is to listen. She already knows the commands but when she 's something that triggers her, e.g. jogger, she takes matters into her own hands. You need to be the shepherd rather than her owner. You need to take control and also work with her instinct. So, let her go - but then command her.'

This seemed like utter madness but we tried it. A friend volunteered to jog, BC saw him from a distance and started to go, I shouted 'GO!' and then "DOWN' and, fuck me, she did. And then stared at me waiting to see what I wanted next. I then said 'come' and tapped my leg and she did.

I was gobsmacked - and promptly burst into tears!

Our walks now are very interactive and involve constant commands and instruction and she is now at the point where most of the time we don't even need a lead.

Flinders just for you...

You sound like the perfect owner of this breed. I think they are amazing and intelligent animals but know full well they would be too much for me. And I say that as the owner of a wolfhound!

Wolfie I LOVE wolfhounds!

I am trying to find a pic of the other one but I seem to be in all of them!

Jeepers. I've had dogs (and trained them) for 30 years and I wouldn't take on a collie. Wonderful dogs, but gosh they need an owner who knows what they're doing.

The dog of choice round here is the working cocker. Usually bought from someone they've found on the internet, who doesn't know the buyer from a bar of soap, or care what happens once the cash has been handed over. The owners try their best and walk the dog incessantly, to calm it down. They just end up with a very fit, madly bored dog, because the owner doesn't know that a working breed needs to exercise its brain too.

Sorry for the rant, this is my pet peeve....

My dh would love a wolfhound!! I rescued 2 tiny border collies when i was 22 (i found a litter abandoned) Id always wanted one but my then boyfriend wasnt keen as he was the son of a sheep farmer and wanted a change . I did my best and put a lot of work in and 15 years on they have been loyal companions and protectors. I fully admit now though that as much as i love the breed im too old to get more collies. I wouldnt have the time or energy anymore so i need something a little lower maintenance. Ill be very sad when my 2 go. I lived alone for a long period and i never had to be fearful as i knew they would protect me and the house. They are wonderful dogs. I didnt know what i was getting into when i got them but years of training classes and agility plus always teaching them new things really paid off. They are completely deaf now so their recall is shot unless they are looking at me but we cant have everything

Thanks Paul - will try that.

Flinders - my two attached (I hope!)