Money family fallout

[Oldcrank]

A friend I have known for all my life ( more like family) borrowed a large sum of money from my uncle, about 15 years ago, to invest in his business.
Friend was badly hit by the recession but has survived.

My uncle now has Alzheimer's and my mum has poa. My mum had a stroke and has a heart condition and couldn't deal with the stress of this, so asked me to intervene.
Friend came up with a monthly payment plan.
In 2 years there have been 7 monthly payments, I have chased twice.
I was told that the full sum would be repaid in June. My mum is waiting to order a new kitchen for my uncle so asked me to chase.

Yesterday I asked when we could expect payment and was met with a barrage of abuse, told it would be repaid when funds were received, I was totally taking the piss and obviously not a real friend. I should have some humility and be grateful for the 80 hours a week he works.
He signed off telling me to have a happy life☹️️

My uncle has recently downsized and has money in the bank, but that has been set aside as he will need care in the future.
This was his retirement money, money he worked hard for and lent to this friend in good faith that it would be repaid in 10 years.
I'm so sad that this friend is angry with us, when we feel that he is totally disrespecting our uncle.
His business seems to have turned around, they bought a massive house. Have loads of fab holidays, kids get given cars, they have v pricey cars.
I know there's a difference between business money and personal money, but he seems to be paying himself plenty.

He is not your friend
Yanbu
The sad thing is that he also knows you aren't being unreasonable. His massive kickoff was not born of a genuine belief that he is doing the best he can, but was a cynical calculated move to emotionally manipulate you into backing off.

This might help: www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-2799921/i-lent-friend-6-000-stopped-making-repayments-legal-action-small-claims-court-no-contract.html

As the original agreement was verbal we have no way of knowing if it was a personal or business loan. No-one knew my uncle was doing it. Bloody idiot!

Again, the terms were loose/nonexistent. Your uncle probably liked to wheel and deal and renegotiate.

Put your uncles Alzheimer's to one side. That's irrelevant 15 years ago.

As the original agreement was verbal we have no way of knowing if it was a personal or business loan.

You have no paper trail, no private loan contract, it all becomes verbal heresay. Your uncle cannot competently give a statement as to the intent of the loan.

Although on the face of it, it looks like goodwill, your Uncle lending money to a family friend but then I'm guessing everyone was involved in a bit of skull duggery? You wouldn't believe the wheeling and dealing that goes on, sometimes he is paid in property.

Legally YOU haven't got a leg to stand on. Unless you have a financial POA, YOU are harassing the family friend. I do have a solicitor who could apply pressure Even the terminology you use is aggressive.

Frankly you are getting involved on behalf of your sick mother, does she have financial POA? If she does she cannot transfer your uncles POA for you to manage.

You're on the fringes of acting illegally. Whereas, with no written agreement - and The only "evidence" we have is the agreement that was going to the solicitors (never signed) is irrelevant - Uncle and Friend may have decided verbally on a payback as and when, because you've found no actual repayment plan have you?

Think long and hard before you start going up the court route, because it will cost YOU money - unless of course you're going to put the costs through your Uncles account ?

You've no contract and he's not going to pay the money back voluntarily as he's had fifteen years to do so and he hasn't. In the meantime he's bought cars and gone on lovely holidays. He should have been prioritising the debt he had.

The friend has already ruined the 50 years of family history. And now he's angry at you and ignoring you to boot. I wouldn't be pussyfooting around trying not to upset people. I'd tell everyone in the 'family' including his mother who would be heartbroken.

Also (to add to the above) it'll be the 'friend's' word against your uncle's. And he has Alzheimer's.

He will repay this money I'm sure. He's awaiting a big business deal

he won't. I'm guessing that big business deal will never come.

We are not going to court cos there's way too many people it would upset

And do all these upset people outrank your Uncle? The man who actually needs the money?

His mum knows Nothing of this, she'd be devastated. I don't think his wife knows either

And I bet he didn't tell them because he knew they wouldn't agree. Where do they think the money came from.

It would rip the family apart. Friends, god children, god parents, 50 years of family history

All because this man acted a cunt and essentially took money with the intent of not paying it all back. 7 months payments out of 24 is a joke. A car or house could have been repossessed for less.

2 years ago it was all ready to be signed by lawyers, but we thought that was overkill cos we're family. There's plenty of evidence

Family or not, he's shafted you. If you have evidence take it to small claims court. If he was being fair and making the payments then fine, but he isn't. And the evidence has to be a paper/money trail. Saying it in front of people is no good. Verbal proof isn't worth the paper it's wrote on.

It's even interest free now.
But he reminded me of how much he has already repaid "earned from scratch"
As if my uncle hadn't earned it from scratch

Tell him well done for what he has paid and then gently remind him.of the outstanding amount that, so far, he hasn't paid.

I just cannot understand how he thinks we are being unreasonable

Because by doing this, he's getting what he wants. You feeling bad and not wanting to pursue it through the relevant channels and putting the onus on you to tear apart 50 years of friendship, all because he's a grabby fucker that thinks he's owed everything.

Never ever lend money that you can't afford to lose.

It reads to me like he's hoping to string it out long enough that if your uncle were to die the debt would go with him (sorry to mention that).

Bonkers- my mum does have financial poa. Friend agreed to us acting on both their behalf. Not legally no, but if we were to go forward with this obviously I would make it all legal. I have a solicitor who I would recommend to my mum, none of this would come from me.
But right now I'm just chasing on behalf of my mum.
I literally said- when can we expect payment- hardly harassing.

I'm not sure quite why you're so aggressive.
As for my solicitor applying pressure, I'm just talking about a letter- hardly aggressive.
There was a payment plan- that's very clear in an email.
I'd be happy to spend my money if necessary, please don't insinuate that I'm about to ripoff my uncle too.
There was no skullduggery or wheeling and dealing on my uncles part.
He lent his godchild money.
I don't know whether he offered or whether he was persuaded.

My uncle worked very hard, had a little very busy shop which he sold, so he had money in the bank and a large flat in london.

The friend got paid in property, not my uncle. This is the only non-by the book business deal my uncle has ever been involved in.

Please stop saying "don't lose money you can't afford to lose"
I can't really tell my uncle that now can I?

My uncle can't competently talk about the loan but we have a dozen emails discussing the details of the loan since then.

I think he is stringing it out because he's struggling to repay. But I am concerned that he's picking a fight now and obviously willing to ruin the relationship.

As lots of pp have said you have 2 options
Going down the legal route for the money or accepting it won't be paid back. Whatever way you go the friendship is going to suffer anyway and I'd rather it suffered with me having my money in the bank.

If he's struggling to pay then he needs to sell his car and get the bus or remortgage his house or get a loan.

He's getting aggressive because he wants you to STFU, the choice is yours, STFU or take his arse to court but hand wringing is not going to cut it.

Why is asking if iabu handwringing?

I just wanted to discuss it because it was on my mind

He's got a cheek asking me to stfu, I've chased it twice in 6 months. This is what I really don't understand

Anyway I'm in a different country now enjoying my holiday
I will leave it for this week, discuss with my mum when I get home and then decide on a plan.
Thanks for listening

He won't suddenly wake up and realise he's being a prick. He won't apologise. He won't tell you what's going on and he doesn't have a plan to repay, ever. He's not the lovely friend, nearly a brother, you thought he was.

I'm so sorry - it must be like losing someone. One of the first stages of grief is denial, and I'm afraid you may be here (as in "I can't believe he'd never pay my uncle back after all we've meant to each other").

You have a choice. Let it go, keep everyone happily thinking he's a lovely family friend, accept your uncle will never get his money back.

Or chase the money, which will cost your uncle money to do in solicitors fees (especially if there is no written contract) and will open everyone's eyes to what he is really like. May be worth taking all the evidence you have to a solicitor to get their advice and an idea of the likely outcome. (Also you need to get your uncle's POA passed to someone capable of handling his affairs).

Actually Bonkers wtf are you talking about "on the fringes of acting illegally"?
That's bollocks- there's nothing illegal about asking for someone's money back.
And if he wants to say I'm harassing him, good luck with that

OP, seriously speak to your solicitor, don't just rely on posters here - as you can see there are wildly different opinions on this.

Personally I think you can prove that your uncle made this loan and expected to be repaid, first of all you have the unsigned agreement which would specify the details of the loan and presumably repayments - even though it wasn't signed it can used to help argue the intent that this transaction was a loan. Secondly you have emails that seem to confirm that this was a loan and you have a history of sporadic repayments which could also be used to demonstrate the intent of the agreement was a loan to be repaid. Lastly, you could ask your uncle's bank for proof of the money going from your Uncle's bank account either by direct transfer to the friend's bank account or cheque payable to the friend.

As for your uncle's Alzheimer's, although it wouldn't have been a factor when the loan was made it could be viewed as a factor (elder financial abuse) now in that this friend could be arguably abusing your uncle's condition (and your aunt's ill health) to avoid repaying. Again, things to discuss with a solicitor.

Good stuff rainbunny. But there are a few things.

A point could be made that no contract exists. Seemingly there is offer and acceptance. Probably consideration. But I think one could argue that there was no intent to be legally bound. It may very well be a case of "just pay me back when (if) you can.

The allowance for the time to recover from the financial crisis. How would this affect things? Are we entering into Estoppel territory?

Then a further renegotiation of sorts with the monthly payment scheme. This may be the key bit. Is it a new contract?

Away from law for a moment, looking at it from the friend's perspective; a very loose arrangement was made with the uncle. The uncle gets sick and now everyone seems to think this arrangement should morph into a something more structured.

I don't know.

To clear up
The original 10 year loan was an interest only mortgage, he paid the interest payments. No documentation for this agreement.
Only when this 10 years was up and it was too confusing for uncle to reapply for the loan did my mum get involved.
That's what we have emails.
It's obvious it's not pay me back when you can.
We're not chasing this because my uncle is sick and can't do it. We're chasing it because he owes this money and it's overdue and uncle needs to be financially sound for his future.

So what's the problem? You got your answer. The problem isn't the money is it? You're having issues with reconciling the fact that this dear friend of yours can do that to you. Well he can. Many people would because muggins like you let them. Sorry it's harsh but it is. If it was me I would have served a serious credit clawing company letter in the first place coupled with a my acting legal rep letter to show I mean business. It's a business transaction.

Yes the problem is my oldest friend is willing to give up our entire family relationship because we dared to ask when we could expect payment. And I'm very sad about that.
I'm also very angry that he could take advantage of my uncle and disrespect him by not taking this debt seriously enough.
Yes there are crappy people in this world, I've been fortunate enough not to come across a lot of them.

You have been fortunate enough no to come across a lot of them. Unfortunately lending money seems to cause an awful lot trouble. Neither a borrower or a lender be. I live by this motto.

You are thinking about this from a too emotional perspective, your oldest friend wouldn't do this to your etc . Well he has and you need to decide how you are going to proceed. I've said already
Go down the legal route or accept the money has gone. And they have definitely seen your poor uncle coming, who in their right mind would get a mortgage for someone without legal papers regarding the repayment being drawn up.