To think this 'no sex baby' thing is ridiculous!?

[Tippitoesandbuttonnose]

I'm posting this as over the past 24 hours I've seen a post on here about someone thinking babies should not be assigned a gender and should wait till they're older and then just seen a news article where a couple have had 'unknown sex' on their babies birth cert!

AIBU to think it's ridiculous to try and make out like your child has no sex? Obviously they do. Gender IMO is different and as they go older by all means let them identify as the male female whatever but it's silly to not assign a sex when they obviously have a penis or vagina?

The reason I think this most is girls will be told about periods etc because it is what they will experience because they are female! So they're gonna know at some point right? Argh!

I know this isn't the most PC post but AIBU?

[grannytomine]

MidsummerMoo but people don't say "the vast majority" they say it as a definite.

Why do you think put babies through painful and medically unnecessary surgery just to make their genitals acceptable? Why do any of us have the right to make people feel they have to do that? If a baby is born with a small penis why should anyone think the right thing to do is remove it? If the child wants surgery later why do we as a society need to put pressure on the parents to "make" the child fit with what people think is "normal" whatever normal might be.

[Eminybob]

It's an absolute disgrace that this has been allowed, and clearly ignorant about the difference between sex and "gender".
When will this madness end?

[AssassinatedBeauty]

"Why do you think put babies through painful and medically unnecessary surgery just to make their genitals acceptable? Why do any of us have the right to make people feel they have to do that? If a baby is born with a small penis why should anyone think the right thing to do is remove it? If the child wants surgery later why do we as a society need to put pressure on the parents to "make" the child fit with what people think is "normal" whatever normal might be."

"We" don't think that, at least I don't. I can't see where anyone here has advocated for forced surgery on children with intersex conditions. In the majority of cases the sex of a person with an intersex condition can be determined. That doesn't mean that surgery is necessary or should be insisted on. I personally think that any surgery should be for medical reasons only, and not for reasons to make any external genitalia look more acceptable. Let the child have some input into it when they're old enough.

"xx is female and xy is male" is not a hurtful statement. It is a matter of scientific fact. People who have a genetic disorder and have different sex chromosomes are people, like everyone else. They may be happy to identify as male or female depending on the details of their condition, or they might be happy to identify as neither.

"I have a vagina, I used to have a womb, I don't think either of those things define me." No of course not, but they identify you as a human female, that's all. Sadly society then often uses that fact to discriminate against people who fall into this group.

None of this has anything to do with the Canadian child in question here. The parent(s) knows the sex of the baby and is fighting a legal battle to hide it. I don't think that's a helpful long term strategy and not a way I'd want society to go. I'd prefer that we acknowledge sex, and then do our very best not to limit or constrain children as a result of their sex.

[grannytomine]

World How Organisation doesn't agree with you AssassinatedBeauty, www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html Have a read, one of the things they say is Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. The significant bit is Most, not all. They also say some males are born 46XX so some males are xx not xy and Similarly some females are also born 46XY So you might view it as they identify as male or female but the WHO says they are male or female, not that they identify as.

So do I accept your scientific fact that xx is female and xy is male or do I believe the World Health Organisation? I think I will stick with WHO.

Do you know the people in Canada? Maybe they are doing this as they want to protect a child who some people would classify as a person but neither male nor female, might not seem hurtful to you but I think it would to many parents with this dilemma.

Personally I don't think what is in someone's underwear (or nappy) is any of your business or mine.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

I will repeat again that these examples are people with genetic disorders that cause ambiguity around their sex. The existence of intersex people doesn't alter the fact that humans are sexually dimorphic, only 2 sexes are involved in reproduction.

You seem to know about the Canadian child as you are referring to them as intersex. From the articles I've read that doesn't seem to be the case, rather that the parent has decided to try and hide the child's biological sex.

I don't care if people are male, female or intersex as long as they treat people properly. Sadly many people are discriminated against because of their biological sex. If we can't name or refer to their sex because to do so is hurtful to intersex people, how do we identify and challenge discrimination?

[MidsummerMoo]

I'd prefer that we acknowledge sex, and then do our very best not to limit or constrain children as a result of their sex.

Assassinated has it here. As far I understand, the Canadian parent is trying to avoid the assumptions they perceive that come with labelling a baby 'boy' or 'girl' and they are allowing them to discover own gender. There is a lot to be done to combat inherent sexism in our society but think this kid is going to have a hard time.

I'd like to know what the child will be told: I would rather raise my child to understand that sex doesn't matter in most regards but that it does explain why they look like Mummy or Daddy in the bath (again, in the vast majority of cases, they will look like Mummy OR Daddy). If I had a son I wouldn't care for one moment what he wore or did as a career or who he loved, but wouldn't want him growing up under the assumption he would one day give birth...

[grannytomine]

We don't know the parents motivation. I know from the family I mentioned that this is something parents struggle with and people poking their noses in doesn't help. If we stopped being so determined to find out the sex of this child and other children maybe parents with children who don't quite fit the mold would be less distressed.

Once again look at the WHO they say not all women are xx and not all men are xy. They don't say not every person is male or female. Maybe if people were a bit more open minded this wouldn't be much of an issue.

Don't children stop having a bath with mum or dad before they actually look like them? Do you really think a baby has genitals that look like an adults?

[jellyfrizz]

I have a vagina, I used to have a womb, I don't think either of those things define me.

I don't either. Sadly society does. It's why you're no good at maths and can't park a car. And why you're so caring and nuturing.

[VestalVirgin]

I understand pink and blue are colours. But I think deliberatley dressing a baby in a mixture of boys and girls clothes is just doing it for the attention.

There are no boys clothes and girls clothes, only child clothes.

What is a parent to do when everything only comes in blue or pink?

IF someone actually does it for the attention, then you know what? JUST IGNORE IT.
Don't give them any attention. Problem solved.

[grannytomine]

jellyfrizz, you obviously don't know me. I don't know exactly who "society" is but no one I know would assume anything like that about me or mine e.g. my DD studied maths at university, my son is a nurse.

Don't you think attitudes have changed?

[AssassinatedBeauty]

grannytomine, JellyFrizz doesn't believe those things, clearly! They're sex-based stereotypes which are still believed and promoted by many many people in our society (UK society is what I'm thinking of here). The point is that JellyFrizz doesn't believe them, I don't believe them and you don't believe them, but plenty of other people do. As a result, women in our society can still now be discriminated against as a result of the many people who believe such nonsense.

[grannytomine]

AssassinatedBeauty I know she doesn't believe it. My point is that I don't think many people believe it, at least against women. Looking at my DDs graduation the women outnumbered the men so don't think girls are being put off maths or discriminated in taking up maths. My son's graduation was different, the males were outnumbered and I am amazed at how many people still think nurses have to be female. Maybe it is men who are being discriminated against now? My son is actually brilliant with children but didn't do children's nursing as he felt he would experience discrimination. Maybe men need to be a bit more active in fighting discrimination they are experiencing.

[jellyfrizz]

Maybe it is men who are being discriminated against now?

Sex role stereotypes are harmful to both sexes and always have been. Boys don't cry. Men are not naturally caring. Men don't make good communicators. Men aren't able to do more than one thing at a time. etc.

[jellyfrizz]

My son's graduation was different, the males were outnumbered and I am amazed at how many people still think nurses have to be female

Really? I have never met anyone that thinks nurses have to be female. I'd say the lack of men in nursing is more to do with the poor pay and lack of status.

It's not too late for your son to do paediatric nursing. Who does he think will discriminate against him?

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Misogyny and patriarchy harms men too, is that what you mean? That occupations such as nursing are seen as feminine and therefore not suitable for men, and of lesser value?

Sadly I think plenty of people do still believe in these kinds of sex-based stereotypes, and the facts back this up. Your DDs maths graduation sounds unusual in the balance of men and women. The WISE campaign has a very detailed statistics about women in STEM subjects at all levels of education. It gives a figure of 40% of maths undergraduates being women:

www.wisecampaign.org.uk/resources/2016/02/higher-education-statistics-2015

[Morphene]

jelly you should try talking to any child. They will tell you that nurses are female and engineers are male.

My DD told me that an engineer can't have a girls name (aged 3yo) and she has a sahd and a mum who works full time as a physicist.

[jellyfrizz]

Morphene yes, I agree that many people including small children assume a nurse will be female but even small children (the ones I've met anyway) don't think a nurse has to be female.
Do many 3 year olds know what engineers are?

[SocksRock]

My friends daughter told me that only men can be doctors. Her mother is a consultant gynaecologist. My daughter thinks that men are engineers - guess what I do for a job...

The attitudes are pervasive and harm everyone.

[DJBaggySmalls]

Your biological sex determines what happens when you go to donate blood. Your sex matters to medical staff. Your gender is and should irrelevant in most contexts.
This is not how to achieve equality. It doesn't tackle any of the root problems or attitudes, and it will put the child at risk.

[jellyfrizz]

The attitudes are pervasive and harm everyone.

I agree. And it's obviously worse than I thought!

[grannytomine]

Really? I have never met anyone that thinks nurses have to be female. I'd say the lack of men in nursing is more to do with the poor pay and lack of status Well people need to look at opportunities, my son graduated 3 years ago and has just been offered a £40k job which isn't too shabby. Not all nurses can go into clinical management or nurse practitioner roles but the roles are there.

It's not too late for your son to do paediatric nursing. Who does he think will discriminate against him? Parents in his experience, men wanting to do caring roles with children are suspect with some parents. He won't change now, won't take the step back as his career is progressing.

[grannytomine]

It gives a figure of 40% of maths undergraduates being women: Not that surprising then, if the average is 40% it is likely that some universities are going to be 50% plus. She has friends who did medicine and again women outnumbered men, I'm not saying that will apply to all universities every year but seems pretty equal to me. Thinking about it I'm pretty sure more girls from her year at school got into medicine than boys. I must ask her but from memory it was 3:2.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

From the page I linked to, in 2016 the figures for medicine (& dentistry together) were 57% women. So a small majority of women at degree level doing medicine. It is one of very few STEM subjects where women in degree courses outnumber men. I don't think it shows that sexist stereotypes are dead!

The stats I gave are for all universities in 2016. It is absolutely not "pretty equal" for maths. 40% women is not "pretty equal"!

[grannytomine]

The page you linked to it is for 2015 graduates, published in 2016 and it seems to say 51% of graduates in STEM subjects were women and maths was 7.7% down on the previous year so maybe my daughter graduated in a year with higher numbers of women doing maths. Only 39% of women graduating had a STEM degree but they still outnumbered the men.

Just checked and my daughter did graduate in a year with more than 40% women graduating with a degree in mathematical sciences, not quite 50% but closer by a few per cent. While I was checking I noticed that in her year almost 80% of veterinary science degrees were women, 60% in law. Engineering and computer science seem to be the male dominated subjects.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Agricultural studies and nursing degrees are counted as STEM subjects. What WISE call the 5 core subjects show a massive underrepresentation of women, and a situation that seems to generally be staying the same or getting worse.

There's no reason why there should be a massive skewing of uptake for any subject based on sex.