To ask people to PLEASE not picket hospitals?

[SerfTerf]

Or consider any kind of direct action against a hospital because of decisions concerning any individual patient.

It's irresponsible.

Parents should be able to replace that capacity, but doctors can override the parents' decisions as they see fit, and that is wrong. Any protest against this abuse of power has my support.

No they don't which is why this has gone through at least three courts.

The Dr's would do the same for a child needing a blood product if the family are JW and refuse.

They would do the same with a child in a Christian Scientist family.

The core reason is the same, what is in the best interests of the child / patient?

Parents do not always have their child's best interests at heart, or their view of 'best interest' is not the same as wider society this is why FGM used to take place in private hospitals in the UK, because parents made a choice that IMHO was not in the best interest of the child and found a Dr to agree to it.

"doctors can override the parents' decisions as they see fit, and that is wrong. Any protest against this abuse of power has my support."

You are wrong. Doctors cannot override parents' decisions, it is the COURT that can override a parent's decision if making a judgement that it is in the best interests of the child.

Have you actually read the court judgement narrative?

Held accountable?! To you and a load of other idiots who know nothing about medicine or this patient? Fuck me, that's arrogant. Actually, arrogant doesn't even come close

This.

A lot of sick people have jumped on this bandwagon and it's their excuse to make vile comments to the staff at Great Ormond Street. I can't help wondering just how much any of them actually care about Charlie.

I also think that his parents are encouraging this

If the FB page is inciting illegal activity it can be reported to FB and they will temporarily suspend the page to look into it.

DSis is a paediatrician who used to work at GOSH. She says cases like this are AWFUL - the baby is suffering, clearly in pain, but the parents want to keep him alive regardless. It's genuinely cruel to make him suffer like that, but the parents (completely understandably) aren't able to see that due to their emotional involvement, which is why the court is necessary.

It's heart breaking for the medical team involved - who the fuck would willingly go through an ordeal like that? - but they have to put their patient's best interests first. To then have dozens of busybodies condemn them as akin to murderers is adding additional stress to what is already an incredibly fraught situation.

The parents can be excused for their stance - they're not thinking clearly as it's their own beloved child - but the busybodies talking about picketing should be ASHAMED of themselves. Disgusting behaviour.

Oh, and to be clear, DSis has been in floods of tears over losing patients - it's not something you ever 'get used to' and certainly not something to aim for! The doctors at GOSH would do ANYTHING to save Charlie if they thought it would help, but the fact is that NO one can do anything. Even the US doc has said that now he's in possession of all the facts he wouldn't treat Charlie, so there are genuinely no options here. It's desperately sad.

I'd be disgusted if even one person picketed GOSH or any other Hospital in retaliation for Charlie Gard. Three separate appeals have been fought and have been lost; the Doctors, Consultants and Judges have every fact available to them and all say the same thing; his life will be spent suffering if it is prolonged. So it's absolutely the right thing for them to end his suffering.

His parents are heartbroken and don't want this. No parent would or could want this. But parents so deeply entrenched in grief and sadness can be expected to make an unbiased decision. It's why we have the judicial system for cases like this. Because parents opinions on 'the best course of action' aren't always the best course of action for the child. It's harrowing. But necessary.

Hollow laughter at the deluded self importance of those who 'care' so much about this that they get riled ip and propose mob action to no good end (the Dr in America has said he cannot help Charlie) as opposed to Drs and nurses who dedicate countless hours above and beyond, to do their best for children that they ACTUALLY care about.

We had a family with placards outside ours accusing the hospital of murdering their baby. The hospital was completely cleared of any blame.Whilst I had sympathy with the family, it's not the right way to behave. And was awful for the staff who had looked after the child.

I'm thankful to see so many ratiional posts about this awful situation.

I was angry to read on the BBC news website that the hospital has "refused to comment". The hospital is not allowed to comment!

And it's not the doctors who have said Charlie cannot go home, it's the Court.

Best interests should rest with the parents. Not independent guardians, not doctors, not courts. That is my belief. People arguing with me will not change that view.

But it will still be wrong as most rational adults know.

Best interests should rest with the parents. Not independent guardians, not doctors, not courts. That is my belief. People arguing with me will not change that view.

Well, there's not much point debating the issue, is there, if your mind is so closed to any alternative (sane) point of view?

The reason it went to court is because of the hospital. Hence the protest. And it is legal to protest in this country. And the very nature of a protest means that people are not always going to agree with what the protest is about.

A good general rule of thumb is that if the best someone can say in defence of theirs or someone else's actions is that they're not illegal, then there's a good chance the behaviour concerned is disgusting. And that holds true here.

Also angel, the reason it went to court is because of the parents as much as the hospital: they were in disagreement. And there's no public interest in shitting all over this child's right to confidentiality because lots of people are stupid, arrogant, nosey and entitled. You have no right to know any more than has already been disclosed in the court proceedings, nor does anyone else not part of Charlie's family, care or legal teams. You wanting to know something for your own prurient reasons doesn't make it in the public interest.

For those saying they'd do the same if they were in the same situation, would you really?

I have been there. More than once. For children with entirely different conditions, just in case someone is inclined to be sniffy about having a second child under those circumstances.

It's awful. But what's happening here isn't about whether this child should be allowed to live or die, it is about whether the death this child is already experiencing should be further prolonged.

It's not peaceful, a child dying on a ventilator. The ventilator keeps the child breathing, but other organs fail. More and more problems happen. More and more intervention is needed. More medications, more invasive treatments to replace more and more of what the body cannot cope with any more.

It's not the same as a child (or adult) on long-term ventilatory support. This isn't a child who is stable, except for the fact they can't breathe for themselves. This is a child who has been dying since birth, or shortly after. The ventilator is one particular medical treatment which is interrupting that death.

I'm not Charlie's parents, nor his medical team. So this is pure speculation, but I assume that he was intubated at a point before it was known how severe his condition was. Had they known beforehand, it's possible he would never have been intubated in the first place; they would have seen his failing respiratory drive as evidence that his little body was giving up, and would have supported his parents (and him) as he slipped away at that point.

But instead, he was intubated, and after a while, they realised he would not be able to be successfully extubated. Again, pure speculation, as I am not party to his medical details. But I assume they will have explored the possibility of giving him a tracheostomy, to allow him to be ventilated but conscious.

The doctors will not have just decided he should die. The hospital's ethics panel will have been involved, and safeguarding, and all sorts of people before it even got to court.

This happens regularly. Mostly though, the parents - even in the midst of unimaginable pain - can see that their child is suffering, and can agree that withdrawing done treatments may actually be in the best interests of the child.

It's not peaceful, being on a ventilator. It forces air into lungs which might prefer to stop. At increasing pressures. With a tiny baby, it can do permanent damage to developing lungs, to the roof of the mouth. The child can't cough, so secretions are hoovered from the lungs. And that assumes all other organs are operating normally.

Doctors aren't out to kill children. And doctors at gosh are used to treating - and saving - children with very complex disabilities, they see quality of life even in the most severely compromised children in the country.

I'm desperately sorry for Charlie's parents. From I've bereaved parent to another, I wish them well.

I just saw a photo of them sleeping either side of him and I wept a little bit

I wish to god that someone had spoken to them in a way that they would have listened

As they have had hope cruelly given when there is none

If they were at peace with this it would a bit easier

Just heartbreaking

I really suspect that the social media warriors who are threatening GOSH and its staff are the same kind of people who can't abide authority in any form and get a perverse kind of pleasure out of sticking it to the man because no one tells ME what to do.

And that's me being charitable.

I don't think they ever did have hope given. She found a doctor who managed to do treatment with some success in a tiny number of patients with a different condition and then decided he was their miracle cure. Every single other doctor, even their own independent expert, said there was no hope and, when in possession of the actual facts, the American doctor did too. No doctor has ever told them that there is hope because there isn't. It's so very very sad but their "hope" was their own desperation, medicine was never on their side.

Anyone who hasn't already done so really really needs to read the transcript of the verdict. It's very easy to read. There's no legalese and it's broken down into easy to follow sections. It makes the whole situation very simple to follow and to understand. It should fill in all the blanks that some people are just making up for themselves. If anyone reads that and still thinks public opinion is of any relevance then they're probably beyond help.

Flying is spot on.

Never moving, speaking, eating, blind, deaf, extensive brain damage.Yet the press still talks about an option in the US even though that doctor has said there is nothing he can do for Charlie.

Imagine if you were a parent of a child who would have benefited from treatment, which GOSH was unable to give, due to this court case.

The family have apparently asked for nobody to go to GOSH today, no visits, candles, pickets etc. Also all comments for the FB group have been turned off. For the best, no doubt. Whatever else anyone might think about what's happened, if he's dying today it should happen peacefully and the GOSH staff and family should be able to focus on nothing other than his passing. The thought of anyone connected to this, be it family or clinical staff, having to encounter any form of anything outside is just too awful to think about.

I've just taken a look at the Charlie's Army facebook group. Looks like a bunch of people falling over themselves to 'prove' they love Charlie more than the other posters. Loads of posts consisting of multiple blue hearts and 'I love you Charlie' comments. Pathetic.

One person has 'leaked' copies of his MRI scan (obviously given to them by a family member) claiming that GOSH have lied about his brain damage Whatever it does, or doesn't, show, the MRI is over 5 months old and Charlie has a degenerative condition so how the fuck it's relevant beats me.

Loads of posts consisting of multiple blue hearts and 'I love you Charlie' comments. Pathetic.

Why is the public being supportive and posting love hearts 'pathetic'.

I post on here on the anniversaries of my children's deaths and on their birthdays and the support I get from people who don't even know me means a lot to me.

It's not 'pathetic' for strangers to care and express it to devastated and grieving parents

The hearts and that can't see any issues with..the comments from others however..

Have you seen what's happening on the GOSH Facebook page? Reams and reams of the most appalling comments towards the hospital and staff who are, apparently, killers. They want to publicise the names of these doctors because they are, apparently, murders.

I am frankly appalled at these people. I'd withdraw free NHS treatment from them in a heartbeat.

Someone posted a link to the staff page on that department or something but think got taken down but still damage may well have been done