To refuse to hand over a commissioned artwork because the customer is demanding copyright?

[Olympiathequeen]

I do commissioned images using photoshop, digital painting and composite photos. This customer (in the USA) is saying that because he commissioned the work he owns the copyright. I've read up on the subject and he doesn't meet these conditions. I've completed what I feel is a beautiful painting which has taken me days to complete for £20 (yes I know!) and I want the option to print limited copies locally. He is saying I can't do this without his permission and he will take any profit and I will get nothing as he has paid me for all rights.

He hasn't got the image yet and he hasn't paid me. He used to work as a lawyer and is trying to bullshit me.

AIBU in telling him politely the copyright is mine as the artist and he can suck it up?

Don't sell it to him! There's no contract. Tell him to go fuck himself. He's having you on.

in that case tell him you charge xx amount if he wants to buy the copyright. xx £££££ or $$$$$$$$$$

Tell him to jog on! The Work for Hire legislation specifically says that you have to have a written agreement.

I'm a lawyer and this is my field of work

DH sold a copy of a picture from his website to a US company for them to use on their website for £300

you are CRAZY to be charging less than £1000 for stuff you have put effort into.

I will

here is the pic. I've greatly reduced the size so that Mn will accept it as is a large file.

Dodsge up a new crappy version for him and keep the original

It's your copyright. Unless you have explicitly signed it over, it's yours. I work a lot with photographers and if my company wants the copyright to a set of pictures - a shoot which we have commissioned and paid for - the cost is substantially higher. Despite it being our commission, the photog retains the copyright unless agreed otherwise in the contract. Don't be bullied.

(There is a lot of misunderstanding about this - as this thread shows. I think many people would be surprised to realize they likely don't own the copyright to their wedding pictures, for example.)

I agree, Gnus there is a lot of ignorance or misunderstanding of IP law on MN and in general.

again

The standard position is that a created design or artwork is automatically your copyright, even when paid for as a commission unless otherwise arranged before work is commenced.

Here's how I would do it (with sample costs) assuming you have the rights to the images you used or are out of copyright:

Price for commission where you retain the copyright: £100
Price for commission where you retain the copyright but you give exclusivity, i.e. you dont sell any other copies: £500
Price for commission where you transfer copyright the the customer: £1000

Then it's their choice but the general principal is the same as when newspaper cartoonists are approached by the the subject of the cartoon, such as politicians, who are notorious for wanting even the most negative depictions of themselves. They can buy and own the original at a premium cost but the rights to have the cartoon published further will remain with the cartoonist.

Letting go of the copyright is cutting off all possible future income. The cost should reflect the possible figure that might be achieved over, say, ten years. This could be considerable in some cases.

If he doesn't like that then walk away.

And £20 is pathetic for three days work. He's taking advantage and you are undercharging bigtime.

Exactly I feel he is attempting to bully me because I am a rubbish business person! However I am learning fast and am not an idiot. I think it's this attempt at taking me for a total fool which has really pissed me off.

Work for hire isn't automatic in the US anyway and has to be formally assigned. Even in the UK we tend to draft confirmatory assignments for the avoidance of doubt.

What he should be able to expect is licence to use the images (though not necessarily exclusive licence and not unlimited rights or editing rights).

Your terms and conditions need to spell out the intellectual property position to avoid similar future problems. In particular, if you are doing remote work for people overseas you need to spell out what law applies (I imagine you'd choose CPDA and reiterate that English/UK law would apply).

Is all your correspondence saved? Refer to it when you write to him again. And under no circumstances release anything useable (hi-res or unwatermarked, for example) until he has paid and agreed.

Thanks Dave. I agree with you completely on the cost issue.

He said initially he would make a brochure of my work only. Get business in and pay for me to do the work at my prices. It's on,y now he's admitting he intends to make and sell art prints from what I produce.

I think our business relationship is terminally ended!

'Exactly I feel he is attempting to bully me because I am a rubbish business person! However I am learning fast and am not an idiot. I think it's this attempt at taking me for a total fool which has really pissed me off.'

He's trying to rip you off. He's going to sell the image on. Tell him you haven't created it yet and as you have no written agreement, you will no longer work with him.

Just seen the picture. Very nice.

I Should also add that the (non-copyright or limited exclusivity) fee should also be based on what he's planning on doing with it. Start low for personal use and work up to top price for use in advertising.

Take a look at what the online photo agencies do with their price structuring. It's very complex depending on usage, including what country and how many copies are printed among other things.

This might be enightening: www.gettyimages.co.uk/purchase/price-calculator/sb10069475ab-001

All emails are saved MrsH.

In all honesty I didn't give it any thought at all before taking on the assignment but I fell in love with my painting and realised it could actually be saleable to a wider market and I would get nothing.

Based on him wanting to sell the image on I'd suggest a commission arrangement, say 65%/35% in his favour. But to be honest, I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him from what you've said. You'd never see your share.

Please do take a look at that Getty link. You are MASSIVELY underselling yourself and he thinks you're a soft touch who he can bully.

Get rid and find better clients, with a better pricing structure. Anyone who wants to own copyright needs to pay A LOT of money. Artists don't relinquish copyright unless they are paid handsomely for the privilege.

An previous student came to talk to us when I did my degree. He had just signed a license deal for one image to use for an advertising campaign for £15k. That was just for one campaign, he still kept the copyright.
I think this guy saw you coming for miles, if you were happy with £20!

If you are in the UK the copyright and intellectual property remains yours unless you sell it to him (the copyright I mean). That's all there is to it.

Thank you Dave and all who've replied. I'll look at the price structuring and won't be caught like this again.

I'll email back (his email was very long (as is with lawyers)) and trying to convince me he owned copyright because of the 'work for hire' legislation, but I think our working relationship is at an end. He said (in coded language) unless he had copyright we couldn't work together.

Suits me

Yes, all posters saying copyright remains with you unless specifically agreed otherwise are correct - may be worth checking any T & C if you sold your piece through third party, and no idea about US law, which may be relevant if contract not made here (though sounds like it was). So my guess is he is bullying you.

I have seen it from both sides - as a "buyer" always pay more for full copyright than a limited licence to reproduce, and as a producer, get more for assigning all my copyright - and the difference can be very significant.

Agree with posters who say you are undervaluing yourself.

Sad, but true, often people, particularly bullies, take you at your own valuation - if you charge squat, they treat you like squat.

Keep your picture, and tell him to go hang. (Or, more rationally, make it clear that you retain copyright, and he is only acquiring a limited licence - may be worth doing some research on licences, and what to charge for different reproduction rights, and that as per your original agreement he can take it on that basis, or not.)

Good luck.

There's a book called Graphic Artists Guild handbook, which is meant to be good to give you an idea of pricing (but it's US based, although I assume prices may be similar here) I haven't bought it yet but am planning to. There's also the AOI (uk based, the Association of illustrators)you can pay a membership fee and they will help with pricing and copyright etc. They also do talks ever so often which are full of information, it used to be about £45/50 for a day of talks if I remember correctly.

OP is that the picture you posted up there. ITS AMAZING! really AMAZING!

I can not believe you are only selling for £20. Do you have a website?

I'm pretty sure that you own the copyright since you made it. He didn't own the image, and even though he's commissioned you to create it, he doesn't get the copyright to the image.
I've commissioned artwork 3 times before and the artist maintained copyright of the image in all occasions. I've got a further 4 which are in the process of being created and they will also remain the intellectual property of the artist. If you want to commission the image AND own the copyright afterward, that has to be negotiated and it will cost much more!
Comparatively, if a client were to tender an consultancy to do a design for an oil refinery (for example!) - the client gets their one refinery, but they don't own the intellectual property for the idea itself and couldn't make a replica without entering into another contract, despite the fact they may want the same thing all over again!