To refuse to hand over a commissioned artwork because the customer is demanding copyright?

[Olympiathequeen]

I do commissioned images using photoshop, digital painting and composite photos. This customer (in the USA) is saying that because he commissioned the work he owns the copyright. I've read up on the subject and he doesn't meet these conditions. I've completed what I feel is a beautiful painting which has taken me days to complete for £20 (yes I know!) and I want the option to print limited copies locally. He is saying I can't do this without his permission and he will take any profit and I will get nothing as he has paid me for all rights.

He hasn't got the image yet and he hasn't paid me. He used to work as a lawyer and is trying to bullshit me.

AIBU in telling him politely the copyright is mine as the artist and he can suck it up?

[Olympiathequeen]

desperately. No I would not have come across that image or had the idea to digitally paint old photos. On the basis of that and what I thought was a good relationship, I was prepared to sell to him for £20 and to give him free rein to reproduce the image and sell it any way he chose. I think that's a good deal in anyone's book?

I was effectively giving away an unlimited licence to him for pennies. I would still have been happy with that deal and it was only when I suggested to him I might sell a few copies locally that he came down heavy handed telling me I had no right to do so and if I sold any I would have to pay him any profit I made and get nothing myself! It was lying to and intimating me that blew the deal out of the water and made me withhold the painting. I printed the image on here before my computer blew up taking with it all my preparatory work and the image. I can download it again and repaint it at my leisure, when it will be a different (but undetectably so) image, as I informed the client. Who I don't think reads mumsnet anyway.

I didn't do the right thing by withholding the image but when someone tries to defraud and cheat you, all bets are off. He should have said I could do what I liked with it and he would have had the painting without me even questioning copyright. Ps it's currently not for sale anyway.

[DesperatelySeekingSushi]

Hello OP
Not so great marketing HighlyInternational cos I googled her site and etsy and still couldn't find it. Found this thread again though and it's identifiable I would have thought, so if you are pretending your PC blew up I'd either delete your thread or take down the image you claim you haven't made.
£20 is ridiculously low and the guy is taking advantage. That said, would you have ever come by that particular image yourself?

[Olympiathequeen]

mummblebeebee. I did check on an American website (copyright office so v official) and the criteria is very specific. A work for hire (aka commissioned work) will only have a transfer of copyright if an employer instructs an employee, and also several other specifics none of which apply to me. The customer (a lawyer) was aware of this yet tried to con me into thinking a 'work for hire' transferred copyright in all circumstances. In his first reply to me he accepted this. www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

ontherise. Thanks but those images are completely free. Copyright free is very specific and you can basically do what you please with them. It states so on the website. Also my lawyer customer discussed copyright free work with me at length (before trying to defraud me of it!). If you want some fab photos Unsplash have totally copyright free images and you don't even have to attribute the photographer. Saves me from Shutterstock.
ginger. You're quite right. When I started the digital painting of old photos I had no idea how much work was involved so it was just a sum off the top of my head! I'm working on a properly priced portfolio

[OnTheRise]

I used to commission artwork all the time. The act of commissioning something does not imply ownership of copyright on the resulting work.

If he wants to own the copyright to the work, tell him how much you'll charge for that.

If he wants to produce posters of the work, tell him how much you'll charge him for a specific number of posters.

If he's not happy with this he can find his copyrights elsewhere.

I'm sure there's a professional organisation you can join which will provide guidance here, but I can't remember the name of it right now. I'll add the details if I can track them down.

I note that you wrote,

the original photo is a 100 year old copyright free image from the us library of congress.

Those images are not "copyright free". They're shared on the understanding that people can use them for private use, but if you want to use them on a commercial basis you're often required to make some sort of payment. Do please check that you're working within the rights they allow, because you can get into a huge amount of trouble if you infringe on their rights. And they do check, and track down infringers.

[gingergenius]

And ffs stop charging stupid prices. It give idiots like your client the idea that creative work is valueless. You can't make any profit for £20. Ffs i wouldn't even charge that low for an hour, let alone a day! If you don't value your work, neither will anyone else. Sorry for the rant but I work in a creative industry and it makes me a bit cross. You still own the copyright. Regardless of the fact that he commissioned it. If it's an original piece of work you own it.

[gingergenius]

The person who creates the work owns the copyright.

[Atenco]

I work as a freelance translator and in all my years of translating the only times I've been ripped off is by Americans that I stupidly agreed a low fee with. Not only were they happy to offer a low fee but then they went on to not even pay me that. The weird thing is I mostly work for Mexican agencies and there is very little legal protection here, but not one of my Mexican clients has ever tried to get away without paying me.

[Mumblebeebee]

The uk law on intellectual rights differs from USA. In England I believe you automatically possess the intellectual rights unless contracts say differently.

In the USA I think the customer owns the intellectual rights on commissioned pieces.

I may be wrong, but something similar raised its head with us a year or so ago regarding this difference between USA and U.K. Law.

[TheMaddHugger]

Highlyinternational Mon 24-Jul-17 20:07:59
Nice marketing, OP hmm

[Highlyinternational]

Nice marketing, OP

[ShowMeWhatYouGot]

No, I bet he's Trump!

[squoosh]

I bet he's a Trump voter.

[Olympiathequeen]

Yes, he's trying to baffle me with legalese. The emails are full of
This sort of thing

Performance of a commission is governed by principles of business and contract law, not copyright, and our relationship and your contractual obligation to deal fairly with me, your client, still exist. I commissioned the image, we agreed on a price, you finished the project etc

He is definitely abusing his position and if he continues with threatening emails hinting at suing me for breach of contract I will contact the American legal governing body. I'm sure an email stating something he knows to be untrue which attempts to defraud me of my copyright would make him think twice next time.I know he is a genuine lawyer because you can check their registration online which I did.

He clearly though I was a silly woman because I work for very low prices and I was naive about copyright issues. Normally I put children and people in fantasy images so copyright is something I don't even want as they are personal to the client.

Either way he is not getting the painting! Luckily I haven't heard anything for over a week so hopefully it's all finished. The Etsy forum said he's a lawyer, what do you expect? Honesty and decency? Did lol!

[andintothefire]

Is he trying to rely upon his status as a lawyer to bully you (e.g. sending emails from an official work account or stating that because he is a lawyer he must know the law and you don't)?

If so, this may constitute an abuse of his professional status and leave him vulnerable to a complaint to his regulatory body as a breach of its code of conduct. I am not sure what regulations apply to him (or whether the same rules apply in his US state), but it would certainly be something that you could complain about in the UK.

If this does apply, it might be worth stating that you consider he is abusing his position as a lawyer by improperly relying upon his status in a private dispute. That may give him pause for thought, at least.

[Catanddogmake6]

The "clean hands" or shield not a sword maxim only applies to equitable remedies not all cases. It may well not apply in this case depending on the argument you run but it's not my area of law.

[LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle]

Well done op.

Fucking chancer and user is what he is.
He clearly thought he had some "silly woman" he could baffle with legalese and claptrap.

As an aside, I love that composite pic.
Bloody good.

[NC4now]

What a chancer. It's your copyright under U.K. law and he'dbe getting a bargain for £20. There no copyright in ideas, just the way the work is presented, so him suggesting a colour scheme is irrelevant.
Cheeky sod. Hope that's the last you hear from him. £20!!! And he wants you to sign over your rights too? Gobsmacked.

[brasty]

Tell him the picture costs £20. If he wants copyright that is an extra £1200.

[Olympiathequeen]

catlady and all.

Yes, he contacted me again in a massively long email.

Again more legal bullshit but with one genuine legal point.

So he says he collaborated on the work which gave him joint copyright
..... I said sending me the photograph (copyright free) and suggest a colour scheme was not collaboration in the legal sense.

He said he also has 'intellectual property rights' as he had suggested how to do the work
........... I replied that's a lie as IPR applies to logos and 'original' ideas etc and painting old photos was not an original idea.

He said he has 'invested' in me by paying a nearly £100 for two earlier works that had been on similar lines and had taken many hours to complete and our 'understanding' was copyright would transfer to him
........I said he had paid for 2 saleable works he could print and recoup his costs. Also we did collaborate on one as he had a license for the photo and I gave him permission to reprint 10 copies and if he needed further contact me and we would discuss a price!

He said we had a contract to supply the latest picture (above) and I was holding it hostage. I said true, we had a contract but as my computer had blown up due to a power surge I couldn't complete the contract and would not be charging him for it. As a gesture of goodwill I would waive the fees for a couple of minor photographic touch ups I'd done. Also at a later date I would download the photo again and repaint it and he could buy a print off Etsy.

Not heard a word since . Short of suing me for breach of contract in America and getting a British court to enforce it (minimal chance) he is stuffed.

The ace up my sleeve is that there is a legal maxim of 'clean hands' which means you can't come to court having done something illegal in relationship to your claim. As it is in writing that he tried to extort the copyright from me using legal jargon he knew to be untrue, he doesn't have a cat in hells chance of succeeding.

Thank you google, MN, and judge Judy

[Epipgab]

He said (in coded language) unless he had copyright we couldn't work together.

What a chancer! Just out to profit from your expertise I think. Tell him you will be unable to send the item. Then put your prices up by 500 per cent.

[Catlady45]

have you had any response from the buyer op ?

[AwaywiththePixies27]

£20? Gosh I walked past a display the other fay where pieces by people who's names I had never heard of not that pupular, were going at £20,000+

[wheresmyphone]

Been on your Etsy page: love what you are doing!

Will be in touch soon!

The posters on here are right: you are under charging but don't put your prices up yet until I have ordered :)

[MrsKlugscheisser]

£20?? DD2 got more than that for prints of some of her GCSE work. You are really underselling yourself.

[Olympiathequeen]

Wheresmyohone. Thank you millions xxx. The picture will print out 20x30" in high resolution which took a lot of effort to achieve. I've got an etsy shop (FabFantasyPhotos) but have only just branched out into colourisation and digital painting on very old photos and I love it, so don't sell these yet (need to do some homework) and look at the graphic artists handbook.

The Getty link doesn't work but I'll find out how it works.

I've just emailed the buyer asking him to explain why he thinks I meet the 'work for hire' criteria. Basically I am giving him more rope to hang himself with!