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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand the point of 'Armed Forces Day'?

260 replies

Runny · 24/06/2017 19:58

I see Jeremy Corbyn is getting attacked by the right wing press yet again for going to Glastonbury (and getting a bigger crowd than Radiohead did last night) instead of attending Armed Forces Day in Liverpool.

Now pardon my ignorance but what is the actual point of 'Armed forces Day'? It sounds like the sort of thing that The Sun newspaper would campaign for, actually I wouldn't be surprised if they did. It's all a bit pointless, and we already have Rememberance Sunday to honour those killed in combat.

I don't know where this over sentimentally for the armed forces has come from over the last 15 years or so? Not saying they don't do a good job, but why are they coming in for special treatment? Why not an emergency services day, or an NHS workers day or a teachers day?

I'm prepared to get flamed for this btw, but I genuinely don't see why we even have it?

OP posts:
IntoTheBeyond · 25/06/2017 13:58

The army is a career choice nowadays. Why should I worship someone who chooses to leave their family behind for months on end. Who chooses to fight in battle should the need arise.

...

Or did they join as young, vulnerable men and were signed up for x amount of years before they were allowed to leave?

Confused
alltouchedout · 25/06/2017 13:59

People in the forces hould be well paid, well equipped, supported on leaving, respected as people doing a challenging job, but I agree that an Armed Forces Day is a weird idea. We don't have national service, they choose to join up. In fact I think things like AF Day are glossing over the real issues. Easy to talk about heroes and say we're honouring then with a day but what does that achieve? I'd prefer real funding and resources went into properly supporting them on leaving and when dealing with hard times during service.

FatGirlWithChocolate · 25/06/2017 14:15

I don't think much has changed since Kipling wrote this. Everyone loves and wants the armed forces when they need them. The rest of the time? not so much.

Tommy

I WENT into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";
But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

exLtEveDallas · 25/06/2017 14:16

I served 24 years.

Despite being abused, called a warmonger and once told I "Shouldn't be on Mumsnet because it's for parents and soldiers kill babies" I am glad to have served.

On paper I should have spent my years sitting in an office looking after the pay, admin, welfare and careers of other military personnel. Nothing really to write home about, and somewhat I expected when I joined up.

In reality, as well as the above I:

Deployed to 3 different war zones.
Worked in UK Flood relief 7 times
Supported civilians during 2 Fire strikes
Supported civilians during 1 Bin strike
Helped a child give birth, at gunpoint.
Helped repatriate a school full of bodies.
Supported and organised charity for those with nothing (really nothing, not UK nothing)
Provided security at UK civilian events and during issues of national security
Worked as a combat med tech for civilians and aggressors during times of combat
Became part of a small team providing innoculations for children, by choice and against orders.
Coordinated assistance on the ground during the Foot and mouth outbreak.
Search and clearance during a landslide.

Slightly more to write home about, but I saw it (still see it) as 'part of my job'

I have no issue with AFD. Now I'm out I'm glad I don't lose yet another weekend working for it, and I don't bother to celebrate it. Neither do most of my now civilian friends. It doesn't have the importance (to me) of Remembrance Day which I always commemorate. Some enjoy it, more power to their elbows, but it really isn't something to get upset or angry about.

I couldn't give a stuff if Jeremy Corbyn didn't go to a service. In fact I think it's less hypocritical, considering governments from both 'sides' have cut Mil funding year on year, leaving the UK dangerously unprotected and undermanned.

EngTech · 25/06/2017 14:20

Runny

I look forward to seeing you front and centre next time the government asks the Armed Services to do something which normal civilians would baulk at.

Also, your freedom is because these people put their lives on the line when required

scottishdiem · 25/06/2017 14:24

Iseesheep

*Patriotism - Having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.

I think British Armed Forces are the very definition of patriotism actually!*

Interesting. And remarkably jingoistic. Patriotism is an attachment to a homeland. This attachment can be viewed in terms of different features relating to one's own homeland, including ethnic, cultural, political or historical aspects. It encompasses a set of concepts closely related to those of nationalism. An excess of patriotism in the defense of a nation is called chauvinism; another related term is jingoism.

I would argue that I am a patriotic Scot but that is little to do with armed forces and nothing to do with the multi-billion pound, designed to kill innocent people, job creation scheme known as Trident that is based in Scotland. However, I digress.

To view ones country through the prism of the armed forces is not patriotism, instead is is militarism.

Why not be proud of a country that has free and democratic elections and very orderly changes of power? Why not be proud of a country that has a thriving and wide ranging arts scene/history? Why not be a proud of a country that has contributed to science and research? Why not be proud of a country that values the rule of law and human rights (to an extent anyway).

Why not be proud of a nation that has an AFD but be critical of a press the creates jingoistic demands that politicians attend.

AntiopeofThemyscira · 25/06/2017 14:51

To keep us safe some people have to be willing to get their hands dirty, that's the world we live in. It's also worth noting that those getting their hands dirty often come from impoverished backgrounds and areas of mass low employment, certainly in this country. And when they're not keeping us safe or fighting wars started by politicians those soldiers are cleaning up the mess as described in LtEve's excellent post.

Most of the anti armed forces posts on here come from a place of pure, narrow minded ignorance and while it's frustrating to read them we should know that they cannot be taken seriously because people who have never been involved in the forces in any capacity can have no clue what they're talking about. More to be pitied (or laughed at) than scorned.

UncontrolledImmigrant · 25/06/2017 14:54

'To keep us safe people have to be willing to get their hands dirty'

what does 'get their hands dirty' actually mean in this context?

IntoTheBeyond · 25/06/2017 15:09

Uncontrolled

You could simply read the post 4 up from yours if you wanted an actual honest-to-God answer to that question...

But you don't. You want affirmation that your view that military = bad with no exceptions is correct.

So be poppet and fuck off.

UncontrolledImmigrant · 25/06/2017 15:13

Plenty of the things listed in that post are done by aid agencies, but no one describes those workers as 'getting their hands dirty'

it is reasonable to ask therefore what the dirtiness refers to

and, are you ok? Telling people to fuck off because they don't agree with you is kind of unhinged. Should you maybe take a break?

TDHManchester · 25/06/2017 15:13

I am ambivanet re arms forces day. Part of me thinks that certain politicns are buttering their own crumpet by introducing it and championing it . However if it helps people then no harm done ?

Armed forces..well they go do do killing or whatever at the behest of the Goverment of the day.

Unfortunately succesive UK Governments are merely puppet Governments of the USA and so essentially, they are used to do the USA's killing and to enforce their policy.

It doesnt always work. Look at Blair,Iraq,Syrai etc. The interference in Muslim countries causing massive destabilisation and spread of terrorism.

The Army loves to recruit from traditional midlands and northern areas where they perceive a large pool of young main may be available.

Leaving that aside, we CANNOT have a situation where some poor lad has gone to fight a USA proxy war and comes back injured or ohrribly mutilated and thats where we must help them. Provide the best facilities and support.

If armed forces day raises money for that purpose then great. If its just another bandwagon badge wearing day then thats no good.

IntoTheBeyond · 25/06/2017 15:18

And yet, no one tells agency workers to 'suck it up, it's what they signed on for'

Reasonable? It's Goadyfuckery-ness and you know it. Hence the fuck off. But I'm fine, thanks so much for asking 😘

How about you tell us what (you think) the answer is, since you're clearly so desperate to...

IntoTheBeyond · 25/06/2017 15:22

Tell ou what, on second thoughts, don't bother.

You think military = evil, bombing cilivilans and causing untold pain and misery wherever they go.

I think the military have to do some awful things. I realise the difference between the men and women on the ground, and the government who give the orders. I thank God there are people willing to volunteer so that conscription/national service isn't reintroduced.

I'll never agree with you, you'll never agree with me.

UncontrolledImmigrant · 25/06/2017 15:23

I haven't told anyone to suck anything up

it is a bit ridiculous to ask me to speculate as to what another poster meant by their phrasing

surely if I knew, there would be no need to ask?

it does not seem as though the person who said the military are needed when people are required to 'get their hands dirty' will be back to explain what they meant

UncontrolledImmigrant · 25/06/2017 15:26

yes we will not agree.

i wonder how your perspective would change if any of the hands getting dirty things (whatever they may be) had been done to you, or your family

Iseesheep · 25/06/2017 15:28

Uncontrolled. You're coming across as spectacularly patronising. I'm
Pretty sure that you know exactly what the PP meant when they said 'getting your hands dirty'. It's a common enough phrase which doesnt mean murdering Armed Forces bastards.

Iseesheep · 25/06/2017 15:31

Uncontrolled So you want people to use some empathy? And to look at the wider picture perhaps?

UncontrolledImmigrant · 25/06/2017 15:32

no, I don't.

People dont refer to firemen, or waitresses or doctors or people working in the jobcentre as getting their hands dirty

I have no idea what it means.

Iseesheep · 25/06/2017 15:34

Yes they do. But you crack on dear.

UncontrolledImmigrant · 25/06/2017 15:36

I cannot imagine the circumstances which would ever see me celebrating anything to do with the military

I have no intention of preventing or interfering in any way with anyone who chooses to do so

it is entirely possible to hold both of those positions simultaneously, that of disagreeing with a thing yet not insisting that everyone else follow suit

you might give it a whirl, actually

Iseesheep · 25/06/2017 15:41

If you'd bothered to read my posts you'd see that I'm not the biggest fan of AFD. I also couldn't care less whether you support the Armed Forces or not. Your choice. However, I do care that you seem to be trying to get a rise out of people who are bothered on this thread.

Goady fuckery indeed.

UncontrolledImmigrant · 25/06/2017 15:53

goady?

this, from someone who, over several posts has been calling others poppet, dear, and telling them to fuck off

ok, sounds legit

UncontrolledImmigrant · 25/06/2017 15:54

It is also interesting that someone posting that others may do as they wish, but that they personally don't agree is trying to get a rise out of them

Confused
HarryHarlow · 25/06/2017 15:55

This thread makes me wonder just who the hell we do respect anymore in our society?

exLtEveDallas · 25/06/2017 15:55

Plenty of the things listed in that post are done by aid agencies, but no one describes those workers as getting their hands dirty

Some of them, yes, but not all. And not without remuneration, nor without knowing what they were doing at the time. The biggest difference that I can see between aid agencies and the military is that the aid agencies are employed and trained to do the jobs they are doing, whereas the military have to step in sometimes with little or no training, and turn their hands to jobs that they never considered they would need to do - things like fire strikes, foot and mouth, bloody olympics and so on.

And actually I (and many people I know) have a great deal of respect for the aid agency workers that rush in and help out. They do an amazing job. I was happy to work with MSF during one deployment and found them very professional and pleasant to work with. I met a great deal of workers as they were only out for a month at a time so there was a lot of changeover. I was 'hands on' but many more colleagues were there to provide protection for them.