Clauses in lease - is this normal and AIBU?

[MinesaBottle]

I posted a while ago about our neighbours/co-freeholders requiring us to sign a lease extension for them and also hand over our ownership of 50% of the loft – for free! To update, we got legal advice, got a survey done and the neighbours have agreed to pay us a reasonable sum, so that’s all good.

The buyer wants to do a loft conversion (it’s the upstairs flat) and I have no real objection except he wants it written into the lease that we allow access to scaffolders and builders (there is no access to our garden from the back, so tradesmen would have to come through our house which I am not happy about) and also wants it in the lease that we won’t object to the planning application! I am not happy with this either, as I am not going to promise not to object to something I haven’t even seen the plans for.

Obviously we’re consulting our solicitor but has anyone else had this? Is it normal? I really wouldn’t have thought it would be necessary to put this kind of thing in the lease itself. I guess he’s trying to get as much as he can and will be open to negotiation, but we are co-freeholders, not his tenants or employees!

Remember this guy is going to let the property. He isn't going to live there so won't care if this building work inconveniences you or causes anger. He won't have to live above you once it's done.

If you feel you have to grant some access charge by the day, from day one so he has an incentive to finish on time. Including a daily charge for the scaffolding being in your garden. Set out times he can have access that suit you. Make it clear this is one time only permission. He must pay directly for any damage or even better charge a refundable deposit. Keep it business like.

Also make sure that you won't still be liable for and future damage or works to the roof.

It sounds like he has bought the flat planning to extend upwards and hasn't realised or budgeted for the fact that he doesn't own the loft, or have access to do the works, and is now trying to bully you into letting him do it for free.

Hell would freeze over before I let him write any access rights into the lease. He, and anyone else that bought his flat would then have the right to traipse through your home into your garden whenever they fancied it.

Never mind the months of disruption you will have while his conversion is happening - the upstairs flat having those rights will devalue your property and make it unattractive to future buyers.

If he is a developer then I would probably refuse access so that he can't do the work - hopefully he will give up and sell it to some normal people and go and annoy someone else!

I would tell him to shove it to be frank. If he's already being an arsehole, imagine how much worse it will get when any building works start.

Unless you need the money from the sale of the loft space, I'd pull out of the whole thing. I certainly wouldn't agree to any of the lease changes he wants or let builders traipse through your house every day. I would say no to everything and hope he decided to sell and you get a better neighbour.

It might also be worth ringing up the local planning office, explaining the issue and seeing if they have any thoughts - they can be quite helpful. They might also be able to give you an idea of what they are likely to want to do and what they are likely to be allowed to do.

Oh and he hasn't even completed on the purchase yet! Upstairs are desperate and will agree to anything. They agreed an inflated price but will now get what they would've done if they'd sold with the short lease, as they have to pay us for the lease extension and loft out of what they get for the house. This guy is clearly pretty canny and knew he had them over a barrel.

We on the other hand have no reason to care, frankly, and nothing to lose anyway.

Why are people such grabby pricks? It's our home ffs and we just want a quiet life.

OP, it's normal for developers. And other unneighbourly people who think they can build and disturb others so they can cash in.

Have you seen the plans of what might be going on in the upstairs flat? Is he planning a roof extension/verandah/whatever?

You have the upper hand here. If he can't get the scaffolding in except through your house, then he can't do what he wants. Has he even got planning permission? search on your council website. Make sure he has a structural survey signed off - an extra floor instead of an attic can put stress on some buildings especially older ones with no underpinning.

Oh if he hasn't even bought it yet I would definitely say no to everything. It's not like you are going to be stuck with him either - he will just pull out. Upstairs will just have to lower their price and find another buyer. From what you have said about them they haven't been great neighbours either so why would you help them sell their flat at disadvantage to you?

"Upstairs are desperate and will agree to anything."

That actually isnt your problem though - they are willing to agree to all kinds of things that will affect YOU, isnt that nice of them. Doesnt mean you have to agree to anything at all.

He has purchased a property assuming he could extend into the loft and also assumed you would give access. That was a risk. How can you be assured that he is only using half the loft if you have no access? Buying half the loft does not give him the right to develop it. Unless specified, you could always claim you assumed he would use it for storage? I am afraid I would not be allowing unrestricted access to my property to someone else's builders and especially if that was being done when I was absent. What is wrong with using front scaffold and accessing via ladders from his property to the rear. Nothing should go into the lease. This is a one off project. If he is that desperate, he should see if the neighbours will do it FOR NO FEE! They can bung it over the fence. You then get him to agree to put everything back as was and make good the garden. Yadnbu

We own half the freehold so we own half the loft space, upstairs own half. Even though we can't access it and don't use it, it's still considered an asset. So he wants to buy our half so he will own the whole loft. It sounds as though the entire sale is contingent on this - if he wants to take the highly unusual step of adding clauses to our lease (and he can stick those) he clearly wants to make sure nothing impedes his bloody loft conversion.

I wouldn't agree to any of it at all. Not even if they paid me. I wouldn't want builders traipsing through my flat with scaffolding poles. If anything in your flat gets damaged, then you have to have it repaired or replaced. Even if they agree to pay to put right any damage, it's still way too much aggro.

If the upstairs people's sale falls through, it is not your problem.

As you say, you have nothing to lose by saying no.

If i am understanding it correctly I don't think id agree to scaffolding they can only access if your in. Thats going to mean you have to be home at all times otherwise your costing him money to pay builders who can't work.

He's asking too much good will, and he's the only one making the gain of profit from 2 bed to 3 bed. Whilst you end up with more people above you stomping about.

My friend had a loft conversion where they didn't use scaffolding - they broke through the floor first. It was much more messy for them but cheaper.

We had a loft conversion and both the roofer and builder were slagging off scaffolders. When they put it up the used our wheelie bins and bike shed to jump on and damaged them. When taking it down they must have dropped a piece on our newly done flat roof on our extension and caused a big leak.

Oh bloody hell I missed that it was a developer job! Pull out, pull out of the loft sale. Get him to take his attitude elsewhere!

Seriously if you can stop the loft agreement and block this I absolutely would (especially as your current neighbours seem to have been twats anyway!). There is NOTHING in this for you except hassle, noise, dirt, and possibly damage and devaluation to your property. Let your neighbours find another buyer.

This person is not going to care about pissing you off, as they won't be there. And a big conversion job is a nightmare to live below, but if it's a developer, I'd be really worried. All they'll care about is getting the most for the cheapest, and as you live underneath, that could have repercussions for you - from cheaply done noisy flooring to nicely badly fitted wetrooms leaking down on you. That's in addition to any potential extra stress on your building from creating a permanent extra floor.

Also, although you'll be able to object to any planned extension that's not to say it'll be blocked (especially if half the stories one hears about developers having deep pockets is true). So you could end up with your building looking completely as you would NOT want it to look - and this could affect the value of your building or its attractiveness to buyers in the future. You could end up kicking yourselves that you let this happen. There is literally NOTHING in this for you and it could seriously affect you in the future.

Seriously, I would block this now - he will go elsewhere and your neighbours can find another, nicer buyer!

You have the upper hand. He can't extend unless you agree to sell your share. You could ask for anything.

Unless there is something already in the lease he cannot force access via your property.

I would respond in saying, no, he cannot have access as its inconvenient and will adversely affect the price of your flat (no way would I buy a lease with a right of access through my flat into my garden) and secondly that you'll only sell your share of the loft if he takes full legal responsibility for the roof (this will get you out of repairs although puts you at risk if the roof leaks and he doesn't repair and upstairs gets damp etc)

Thanks all. I am pretty worried but apparently they want to meet us - we're not committing to anything until we get legal advice. DH is also in the construction industry so will be taking a very close look at any plans...

I honestly think this has the potential to be a complete non-issue. By all means meet with them and hear what they want, but you are under no obligation to agree to anything at all, and if you don't agree they can't do anything!

They haven't even bought the place yet, please don't worry or get yourself stressed out, you have ALL of the power here - they have none!

I hope it does turn out to be a non-issue! I really do. But there's no way we are agreeing to what they are asking. To even want to put something like that in the lease is a big red flag, imo.

He sounds like he will take everything and more

Pull out of the loft sale altogether and refuse any of his demands

Absolutely, a massive red flag. I wouldn't want anything to do with him!

It sounds like it is your current neighbours that are buying the loft and lease and then selling it on to him, is that right? In which case can you just pull out of the whole thing?

If you just say no, and refuse to talk about it further, there's nothing they can do. They can't MAKE you compromise, they can only ask.

Chin up and stand firm!

Who will be required to pay for ongoing maintenance of the roof? I'm just curious as presumably they will be fiddling about with it.

The roof! the main thing that's jumping out to me. Who is responsible for that and if you're both entering into new leases. If you have an existing lender, you will most likely need to get their permission. Also will it reduce the value of their property?

Surely they can scaffold from the outside, get in via the neighbour's own place and sort it out from there?

The other posters are right - things like temporary arrangements - IF you are happy with them - should be in a separate licence which should deal with consents, damage, building regs, insurance etc. This should all be negotiated via your sols for which the neighbour should pay.

If, though, you aren't going to allow the access the neighbour wants (and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't either), I'd tell them now rather than make everyone negotiate docs which you won't want to sign.

Re the planning permission, it's not all that unusual to say something along the lines that the buyer is making an application for X as shown on drawings which you attach and you won't object to that BUT you can't be expected to give carte blanche to whatever planning objection they may want to put in!

I'm shocked you are even selling the loft above your house - you are going to have tenants living there who have no loyalty or connection to you and will have no incentive to keep down the noise.

We on the other hand have no reason to care, frankly, and nothing to lose anyway.

^ just say no.

Old neighbours are pricks, and new neighbour is a prick (who hasn't even knocked on your door to introduce himself and have a friendly chat about proposed building work)

Scaffolders through your home...what planet do they live on where they think you'd actually agree to this!?