to ask if I'm being cruel to my children?

[Busybecca]

We have two daughters, aged 4 and 3. DH and I have fallen out tonight after he told me he thought I was cruel to the girls. DH and I differ in that I want to encourage the girls to be independent and he likes to baby them.

He works four days per week 9-5 so he isn't trying to make up for his absence or anything, but it's becoming unbearable when the four of us are together and I think our different approaches are totally unfair on and confusing to the children.

DH will hand feed them. Lift them on and off the toilet and wipe their bums. Put their shoes and clothes on and take them off for them. Put their rubbish in the bin for them. He pretty much does what they say, when they say it or else they're crying and whinging.

DD1 today went on the trampoline at the bottom of the garden then called to be lifted down. I called "use the ladder" but DH went running down the garden to lift her down Later he was upstairs and she came inside and called up to him to come and take her shoes off for her and he did! At tea time I called up to DD2 that tea was ready and she called DH to carry her downstairs, which he did. I asked her to wash her hands and she called him to turn the tap on for her, then to get the soap out for her, then to pass her the towel.

When it's just me and the girls they are fully capable of doing all of the above for themselves and they are happy to do so. When he is here they're whiny, bossy and demanding and I don't enjoy family time at all because of that. They don't listen to DH if he asks them to do anything, they just order him around.

Tonight DD1 said she needed a tissue. She was standing outside the bathroom door, I was washing up and DH was upstairs. I replied 'there's tissue in the bathroom.' She started calling to DH to get her a tissue and Lo and behold he came running downstairs to do so. Then he went in the shower and she sneezed again and was calling at him to fetch her a tissue. I told her she was more than capable of getting it herself and that he couldn't hear her because he was in the shower. She started screaming and crying for him to do it now and after a couple of minutes he got out of the shower to see what the matter was - hence me being called cruel for not getting her a tissue.

It's getting to the stage where they're a total pain in the arse on his first day back to work and I have to 'reset' them to realise they're capable of everything above. The following day they're back to normal and much happier but still DH will go back to being at their beck and call in the evening which just leads to tantrum after tantrum.

AIBU to think we can't go on like this or am I indeed cruel?

[Tinseleverywhere]

I do think a bit of compromise is possible here. I like to do things for people I love and find it hard to say no. The thing is to find a balance so you are still doing things as a kindness but people appreciate that and don't take advantage, especially kids but this can happen with adults too of course.

I think the Dh has said the op is cruel as he was feeling defensive and he probably knows deep down she is right but finds it hard to change. A more understanding approach might get him to admit he is wrong. If he wants to do things for them that can be a positive thing you just need to change what he does and make sure the kids appreciate he is helping them not treat him like a servant.

[diddl]

"She started screaming and crying for him to do it now and after a couple of minutes he got out of the shower to see what the matter was"

That's the problem, isn't it?

The insistance on asking because daddy is there.

Nothing wrong with helping & encouraging, but doing it all such that they then start to demand mummy does/can't cope when daddy is there & unavailable is obviously not good.

[nokidshere]

A father insisting on wiping a 4 yo's bum when she's perfectly capable of doing it herself, would raise safeguarding alarm bells if anyone at school knew that. He may want to consider that as well.as the excellent advice above.

What absolute drivel. Leaving aside the fact that lots of 4 year olds still need help in the toilet because they can't wipe properly a father helping a 4 year old in the bathroom is, thankfully for the majority of people, not a safeguarding issue.

[mathanxiety]

...they will say they need a wee, demand to be lifted to the toilet, he will do so, pull their knickers down, lift them onto the toilet, wipe for them, replace knickers and carry them to wherever they want to go...

That is quite strange behaviour on the part of your girls. Many (most?) children are proud of being big girls or boys and doing things on their own. They don't regress to being babied from there.

And why do they cry and whine and become hard to deal with the day after DH is back at work? This is not normal either.

I am going to go against the grain here and suggest that you need to compromise a bit on your independence principle.

I agree with SuperRainbows -
Maybe their behaviour around their dad is a sign that you are expecting too much and they need more nurturing. By the sounds of it he agrees and a pattern has evolved.

There is too much difference between the two of you and I wonder if the girls have picked up on the conflict. This would be much more harmful than any parenting approach (barring abuse). I suspect they have picked up on some of it and are trying to please both parents by adopting behaviour they think each parent wants to see in them.

You have painted yourself into a corner by using terms like 'cruel'. I hope you can step back from that and try to find some common ground. Do you accept that he loves the girls and wants the best for them, wishes their happiness, and shares those hopes with you? If yes, start to reevaluate at that point of acceptance and be generous-spirited towards him.

It is not so absolutely crucial to the wellbeing of the girls that every single time they ask for help doing something that they could well do themselves you stand on ceremony. Does your position come from anxiety about how the girls will fare?

I think you should relax a bit. I agree with those who say the girls will turn out fine even with different approaches to parenting, but I will add the caveat that this is only if they are not affected by tension or a power struggle between you and DH. This is really the only thing that will harm them.

[Eggandchipsfortea93]

Even if it wasn't a big deal to you it was to her so you should have taken the time to resolve the issue rather than leaving her to cry. I would call you cruel.
She wanted a tissue, and the OP told her where she could find one. That is dealing with the issue. If the child wanted more discussion she could have gone to her DM, or said why she needed help. A 4yo should not be having everyone come running because she insists they must fetch something rather than doing it herself.
Its not cruel to tell her where to find a tissue, and it is inappropriate to drop everything to meet her every demand at that age.

Aside from anything else, if she stands screaming at school because she wants other people to fetch things for her (when she knows where they are), she will look pretty silly, and will struggle to make any friends.
That is why the OP is being the kinder parent by teaching her daughter to be independent.

[Eggandchipsfortea93]

You have painted yourself into a corner by using terms like 'cruel'.
start to reevaluate at that point of acceptance and be generous-spirited towards him.
So the OP was called cruel, and that is her 'painting herself into a corner'!!!
And the solution to her DH saying she is cruel, is for her to be more generous spirited toward him?
Frankly that is madness - using that logic, if someone hits you, its your fault, and you should buy them a gift and try to see their positive characteristics.

[mathanxiety]

I'd say they're learning he's a mug who will do whatever they say, however they behave and however they treat him and that he's incapable of controlling them because they expect him to listen to them but disregard anything he says in return.

I think your characterisation of their perceptions here is a good bit off.
They are very young to be thinking of parents as mugs.

Children the ages yours are do not see others as mugs.

They also frequently disobey, and disregard what is said to them.
This is normal behaviour. If they were compliant in every respect, or completely controlled, it would be worrying. Children of 3 and 4 are nothing if not 'spirited', to put it mildly, but to ascribe cunning to them would be wrong.

I think you are catastrophising here.

PS You have painted yourself into a corner by using terms like 'cruel'.
Should read "You have BOTH painted yourselves into a corner here..."

[nokidshere]

I think you just need to find some middle ground.

I am considered the hard parent in our house because I am much more likely to be encouraging independence than dh. He is a kind and loving dad who will do anything for our boys and I often feel he babies them.

They are now teenagers, good humoured, independent almost adults who affectionately take advantage of his good nature. As an example, if they say "can I have a cup of tea" I say "oh yes and make me one too please" whereas dh will say "of course, I'll call you when it's ready".

We have accepted over the years that we parent differently, we don't criticise each other's styles although I have, on occasion, been exasperated by it. Dh still does more for them than I do - he will pick up shoes and bags dumped in the hallway, I call them to do it themselves.

Having different parenting styles hasn't damaged our family or our children, it's entirely possible to co-exist if you accept that you are different. I think the secret is not to criticise each other and make sure that ultimately you have the same goals even if you go about it in different ways.

[mathanxiety]

Children nearly always 'manage' in school. It doesn't mean they don't need some 'babying' at home.

Many children are capable of excellent behaviour in school but once home they will have a meltdown.

Parents shouldn't worry that their children are going to hell in a handcart because they are not displaying emotional maturity at age 4.

[nokidshere]

Just to add - my children don't see their dad as a mug. They have great respect and love for him and have a great relationship. Nor are they entitled teens.

[RB68]

I actually think he is being cruel teaching them to be spoilt bossy brats!! I think you need to film them doing all these things independently and show him the film and say he is being taken for a mug

[Fruitcocktail6]

He's really not doing them any favours. If anything, he is being cruel because this will negatively impact their development and learning. Children need to explore, practice, problem solve, make mistakes and learn from them.

[Hedgeh0g]

It sounds to me like you know exactly why he's doing it (to gain their affection), and that he knows full well they are capable themselves. I imagine there is also an element of needing to be needed, especially if, as you say, when they are upset etc they want you, not him.

In terms of how to stop it- can you try having a frank conversation with him (I expect you've tried this before), and suggest that he tries it your way for a period of time and see what happens? Tell him that you think it's actually damaging his relationship with them (your reasoning was excellent and makes a lot of sense), suggest ways that he could stop doing it, and ask him to try it for a period and see whether it benefits their relationship? Or, if he's resistant to being told he's the problem, could you make it about the children? White lie that the teachers have raised a concern about their lack of independence, maybe create a reward chart "for the children" but really to keep him focussed?

[GreenTulips]

Leaving him to carry on as he was will not impact them adversely.

BUT it is impacting the mother adversely - Which is the problem

[ThanksMsMay]

No Killdora, I think that poster calling the OP a cruel mother for not immediately running to the aid of a child whi didn't need her was below the belt.

[5amisnotmorning]

They are still very little and probably want attention from their daddy. Independence is a journey, they won't be spoiled from being a little pandered to at home. But then maybe I am the soft one. I have a 3yo and a 6yo and we just gently encourage them to take responsibility. We still jump the 6 yo off the trampoline sometimes though! Their preschool and school teachers certainly wouldn't describe them as spoiled or incapable! Don't we all want a little looking after occassionally?

[GreenTulips]

they won't be spoiled from being a little pandered to at home

That's not the point is it????

[WhatWouldGenghisDo]

The problem with what the dad is doing is not that he's being overly nurturing etc - agree they're very little and nurturing is good. The problem with what he's doing is that he's teaching them that screaming and crying is a powerful way to get what they want. That's what op is having to 'deprogramme' every week. Of course little children aren't manipulators but they are learning machines and if screaming is rewarded with attention etc then they will scream more.

[GreenTulips]

And - the DH is annoyed that OP won't pander so he has too (in that his shower was interrupted over a tissue so called the OP names

[MrsPringles]

Oh good lord, YANBU. I know they're little and need help with some things still but they don't need your DH to be their personal butler.

They'll get a shock when they start school

[AVY1]

Our DD is like this and is still, at 6, occasionally and frustratingly offhand about barking orders (handing us rubbish, cups etc / not going to get the toy or book she wants etc)

I think DH did these things as it made life easier because things just got done and also because he is naturally a worrier about safety but it also meant DD also had an easier life and wanted to be waited on. He also thought I was being mean until I pointed out that I still help her when she is unconfident / nervous.

we went ott with praise / thanks when she did something for herself for a couple of weeks. For the most part that's fixed the problem. It seems to mainly be an issue now if she wants to do two things at the same time.

Anyway, YANBU, inspiring independence with the tasks you know children are capable of is such a positive!

[GabsAlot]

hs pandering to them thy will be spoilt brats and demanding

it happened to my dsis my parents by thier third child couldnt b a strong as before so done eveything for her up until the day our dm diied

at 18 she coulnt cope with anything-show him this thread

[Busybecca]

It's really not an affectionate/tactile thing. They don't ever want to cuddle him, they come to me for that. It's more a "daddy, carry me downstairs RIGHT NOW!!" and much screaming if he dare not do exactly as instructed immediately. The thing that doubly frustrates me is most of the time he'll be at their beck and call all day but more frequently he's becoming angry and shouting at them to stop whinging and moaning after a while, but he doesn't seem to see that it's his behaviour that's causing it and again it leads to more upset and confusion for the girls which isn't fair on them.

He knows there is far less upset my way. We have a three storey house and our room is on the top floor. When we discussed things last week, I said to stay in bed and listen to how school/nursery mornings go when he isn't there. The girls woke up and greeted me and one another nicely, got themselves dressed while I showered, then walked themselves down to go to the toilet, wash their hands and to sit down for breakfast, before putting on their own shoes and riding their bikes happily to nursery.

The following day when he was up and about, the day started with them both screaming at him from bed to carry them to the toilet. Then they were arguing with one another over who he was going to dress first. They both refused to walk downstairs, wash their own hands, put thrir shoes on and demanded he spoon feed them their cereal. When we left they both whinged that their legs were too tired so he tried alternating pushing them both on their bikes but whichever one he wasn't pushing was screaming and stopping and crying. I didn't say or infer 'I told you so' but he was just excusing their behaviour and saying they were just tired

[Foureyesarebetterthantwo]

That is odd, because it doesn't sound much fun. It also sounds like your girls are ready for the level of independence you give them.

Ultimately, though, he's probably not going to change. I know I have babied mine a bit over the years, but I have found it not too bad being a pre-teen/teen mum in terms of having more confidence sending them out into the world.

I think parenting with two people is often more difficult because it's not clear whose in charge, this used to be the same for us, in any combination of me, husband and mum, as my mum is more like you in terms of pushing independence. So, the chaos when both parents attempt to do it is quite common, although he sounds a bit ridiculous in his servitude.

[Heirhelp]

I make my 13 month old take off her coat after I have unzipped it and mostly feed herself.