to think just saying no isn't as easy

[user1496785376]

as many people on mumsnet seem to think it is? The thread about saying no to looking after a friend's dog got me thinking. I've never found it easy to say no but after being told many times that I shouldn't be such a doormat I have tried saying no more often. But I then found that there are many people who have never been taught to take no for an answer. They badger you for explanations, they keep on asking and saying "why not? oh go on, do it for me". Even something simple like not wanting an alcoholic drink has people saying "why don't you want one? Why don't you drink? Go on, one won't hurt you"
So does anyone else find they can't "just say no" because others won't just accept being told no?

OP I find it hard saying no as well and always slightly disbelieve people who say they always find it easy. Who hasn't struggled saying no to, e.g. an increased workload when you're terrified of losing your job in a depressed employment market? Or when you just don't fancy going to your well-meaning but tedious colleague's dinner party but they keep hassling you about it, and you have no good reason not to go?

It doesn't help if you come from a family where 'no' just isn't heard - I have relatives who will ask if they can come visit, I say no, and then one day they turn up at my door with suitcases and a giant dog expecting to stay for 3 weeks, pretending we'd never had the conversation where I said they couldn't come, and behaving as through I'm being cruel to their children and mad and unreasonable, and where will they stay when no hotels will take dogs, and I've ruined their holiday, etc. If you were raised by people like this, it can be very hard to set any boundaries at all without tremendous guilt, and a nagging feeling that you might be mad.

Best advice I've had was from my DH, who suggested (re: my family) that I 'behave as though they're normal' - I.e. go into encounters with them trying to expect reasonable behaviour, and feeling properly shocked & outraged (rather than resigned) when they do something mad. Don't just sink in and accept that they can do whatever they want with you because they live in a different version of reality where it's impossible to make them understand.

Also, accepting that it's not your job to make them understand if they won't / can't, and that if they want to be difficult then you can be difficult too.

Of course this is all more complicated if the person you're trying to say no to is your boss, or a very important client, etc. I think that's part of what people mean about it getting easier as you get older, as with any luck you have a bit more power and autonomy as you progress through life & career.

'OP I find it hard saying no as well and always slightly disbelieve people who say they always find it easy. Who hasn't struggled saying no to, e.g. an increased workload when you're terrified of losing your job in a depressed employment market? Or when you just don't fancy going to your well-meaning but tedious colleague's dinner party but they keep hassling you about it, and you have no good reason not to go?'

Then you make up some non-committal excuse. It's not hard at all. I have never had a hard time saying no. In some situations, however, I've made up some vague excuse. 'Sorry, I have other plans,' (true, involving my sofa and Netflix). 'Can't take that work on, sorry, I have another job in the evenings (eating crisps and MNing).'

Bip - I do think your work example is hard.
But that is only one small part. The colleagues dinner party I just never manage to find a convenient time

I've actually stopped coming up with excuses to not go to things now. I just say "I won't be able to make it I'm afraid." If people ask why I say "I've got other arrangements" but I tend to find most people don't ask. If it's close friends I'm just totally honest.

you need to reset people's expectations of you. Decide what your limits are and stick to them come hell or high water and once you get past the attempts to put you back in your place you'll find that people will respect your boundaries automatically (I.e won't waste their energy asking you to do stuff they know you're not going to agree to)

I also agree that the worst thing you can do with invasive people like this is give a reason or excuse for turning them down - this just encourages them to problem solve it away. Instead say things like 'I'm not going to be able to do that I'm afraid' 'I can't make it this time' 'I'm afraid I have other commitments' if they demand further details just say 'I'm sorry'. Further nagging - 'I've explained I can't do it, please stop asking' or 'shall we talk about something else?'.

Practice saying these sorts of things until you're used to hearing them come out of your mouth. And most importantly, when you do successfully assert yourself the first few times you'll probably feel like an awful person afterwards and want to backtrack don't do it - pat yourself on the back instead. It'll be hard to start with but quickly get easier!

I think a lot of this comes down to what a pp said about ensuring you don't have assholes around you; it's tricky if the assholes are your family, or people you are dependent on in some way for livelihood, or generally well-meaning people who don't realise they're being assholes because actually they're desperately lonely or needy or think they're just being good salespeople. There are people who will keep asking for literally the rest of your life no matter how many times you say no (mlm salespeople for example), and that starts to get very uncomfortable. My DH had a colleague who kept pushing him to hire his wife as a consultant / go to conferences & workshops she was running. DH said no to this on average once a week for 3 years, tried all sorts of different ways of saying no, told him frankly that he was never going to say yes and to stop asking - and this bloke never gave up suggesting it! DH began to dread going into work because there was no getting away from the constant badgering. This colleague's wife has a sales background which has clearly pushed the 'don't take no for an answer' line. It is psychologically really wearing having to be around people who are that thick-skinned.

Yes I think once you have changed the rules and communicated this clearly you can expect 3 kinds of responses:

Some people might be upset initially but will respect you more long term so your relationships with them will improve

Some people will drop you because they are users and you are no longer being useful. Good riddance

Some people will carry on regardless because they are batshit. I don't know what you're supposed to do about these people except stay out of their way

Never try explaining - that just opens you up to them proving your excuses are unreasonable. You need "no thanks" and "sorry I can't". If you lead with these it's miles easier to continue:
"Request"
"Sorry, no I can't"
"But why?"
"I just can't, sorry"
"But why?"
"I've said no, and that's final" combined with look.
It took me many years of people-pleasing to work out that if you say "no" most people don't care & won't remember, and those that do get arsey are the sort who you'd rather weren't bothering you in the first place. And life is too short to spend it doing things that other people want if it's not equally reciprocated.

I find it helps if I make an issue of someone making an issue of it - for example...
The drinks thing - no I don't want another drink, I've said no, why are you ignoring my answer?

To say no you need to find a way to be comfortable with potentially making other people unhappy or uncomfortable. Rather than people pleasing by giving in all the time.

Not everyone can win all the time, think of it as helping the pushy people to develop better cooperation skills by standing up to them

The thing is, it's hard to come back from being a people-pleaser because everyone is used to you being a doormat and don't like you pushing back, so they'll stamp on you harder than they would ever dare to someone who wasn't a doormat from the beginning.

I had this come to a head on a family holiday. 2 weeks in the middle of nowhere with people who ignore what I say over anything and everything.
Do you want some food?
No, I'm not hungry.
How about chips?
No thank you, I said I'm not hungry.
What about something sweet - I can go get ice cream.
I'm not hungry, no thank you.
Why, what's the matter? Are you not feeling well?
I'm fine, I'm just not hungry.
repeat ad infinitum

It was extremely upsetting and frustrating, made worse by the fact that I couldn't get away from the fucking cottage. In the end I just took a blunt, deadpan tone and said "no thank you. No. No. I said no. No. No. Did you hear be? I said no. No."

So you need to practice saying those things and not worry about coming across as being rude, clearly the pushy people are not worried about rudeness.

It's not easy for everyone I agree but I have no trouble with it
I think it stems from my Disney dad who agreed to everything but did I thing so I absolutely HATE being let down or letting people down but I can cope with being told no and saying it myself.
If people badger me I usually say " I already told you no" and then ignore - I also have no issue being rude to people who are really annoying me!!

It is difficult to say no when you have been taught to be a people pleaser and accommodate everyone else's wishes before your own. It does get easier with practice though, I promise. Start with small expressions of your preferences "Do you fancy going for dinner at that Chinese restaurant?" "Actually I don't like Chinese that much. What about the sushi place?" and build up from there.

One of the best pieces of advice I have come across is "reasons are for reasonable people". If you say no to an unreasonable person they just use it as ammo against you or try to persuade you that the reason isn't true. So "I can't go, it's too far to drive" leads to "It's not too far - it's only two hours for goodness sake! You drove for three hours last year to go to Kelly's wedding, is this not as important? Tell you what, I'll drive you. Pick you up at five." Best just to say "no" to those people.

I find it so hard too, result of a domineering mother I suppose. Good tips here to practice.

Someone mentioned about children being told not to say No to parents and teachers for e.g. I am guilty of this 'you don't say no to me' when I ask them to do something. How do you handle this or balance it so they are able to do as you ask (reasonable requests) or cooperate with teachers etc without turning them into people pleasers?

HerRoyalNotness I would say give them as much control over their lives as possible - actively seek their opinions as much as possible. This will vary depending on their age, but can start with things like what they want for breakfast, what they wear, whether you go swimming or to the cinema on a Saturday etc. Maybe they can decide what's for dinner once a week. Try to go along with these decisions even if it's not what you would do. If they have confidence in expressing their preferences then that will stand them in good stead, and you can pick your battles with things that you need to insist upon (safety or hygiene for example).

Someone mentioned about children being told not to say No to parents and teachers for e.g. I am guilty of this 'you don't say no to me' when I ask them to do something. How do you handle this or balance it so they are able to do as you ask (reasonable requests) or cooperate with teachers etc without turning them into people pleasers?

I think it's important for children to learn about cooperation rather than to learn about compliance.

So if DD says no to me I ask her why. If think her reasons are sensible and outweigh mine then I don't make her do it. If I don't think she's being reasonable, I explain why what she wants isn't possible.

On those occasions when you do have to lay down the law, I try to make sure the message I'm giving is more like

"Do what I say otherwise we will be late / you might get hurt / that will get broken"

Than

"Do what I say otherwise you are behaving unacceptably / upsetting me / going to make me angry"

About tone as much as anything and not always easy

First of all I think I give off a vibe that says don't ask me.

I think I must do this as well as I very rarely get asked to do things I don't want to do and it really doesn't bother me saying no. I have been asked to do the odd thing at work which I have turned down with an 'if I do this, I won't have time to do that. What is your priority?' and they've been happy to leave it. I was once asked to have a friend's child from 7.30 and take him to school twice a week-I had just had a baby and had other kids all in ks1 at the time and just said no, it was too much-they were fine about it. I was once asked to have a friends child for a sleepover one weekend so she could go out with her mates (he was hard work) but we were going to a party that night so I said no. The mum then asked me if I could take him to the party with us-I said no. We are still good friends!

I honestly can't remember any other unreasonable requests.

Yep, practice. A lot of good expressions to use in the previous posts.
Don't engage, if that fails, divert attention to another subject, or maybe try "I can't commit to that right now, but if things change I'll get back to you straightaway" to delay it a bit but with a positive tone to it?
For more instant response situations like the drinks, it sounds like they need to feel like they're 'winning' something out of the conversation (hope that makes sense) - maybe have a response that gives them something, even if it's just your feigned gratitude/a compliment?
I can envisage something like:
Them: have a drink
You: no thanks.
Them: go on, for meeeee!
oh don't be a spoil sport!
Whine, whine, wheedle wheedle etc.
You: I've said no already, but thanks for the offer - you're very kind.
(Swiftly change subject)

I like the line"Reasons are for reasonable people."

I've come to realise that whilst technically I ~can~ do many things, as the question "Can you do X?" is asking, whether I want to or it is convenient for me is another matter.
I have a tendency to say yes if put on the spot, so avoid this by saying "Let me check and get back to you."

I used to help out somewhere where my "No, I can't do it" kept getting ignored. I'm not hard faced enough to say "Tough, I said no," whilst chaos reigned, so I stopped helping.

The food comment made me laugh.
I have that conversation with a relative.
Do you fancy X, Vonklump.
No, thanks, I'm full.
What about Y?
No, I'm full, we (including the asker) just ate an hour ago.
Z?
And on. Until the asker has a huff that I'm being uncooperative and not eating.

It's often not about you.

Agree, no need to justify/expand on or reiterate reasons.

Broken record technique is quite useful.

Or (if that fails) silence or a direct "I've said no: why are you still asking?"

I have one friend/aquaintance I see often (DC in same class, and she's a neighbour) who pushes boundaries and gets arsey if her requests are refused. I maintain my boundaries and when she behaves like that it just confirms that have done the right thing.

I am often baffled by the posts where the poor poster gets themselves in such a state because they cannot say no. Some people have a never-ending cheek and ask all sorts.

Often I don't even give a reason. Just no will suffice. If you say yes to the badgerers once they will always expect a yes.

Lots of people, especially women, find assertiveness a big challenge.

Loads of great self help info is available though!

No is my default.